Author Topic: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc  (Read 14687 times)

.... though, I also found this one (tfl one though I don't think it's london specific).  Looking selectively at section 4.6 it confirms that the set up is indeed that the pedestrian will wait for <max time> unless a gap occurs sooner.  >:(  :-X  ::-)
Thats is an interesting document: I have read section 4.6:
It seems on faster roads they legally have to delay the change to red  when the lead car is too close to the stop line (to avoid panic braking that still results in vehicle crossing stop line at red because amber is a fixed 3 seconds*), but surely it would only  cost a few seconds to let that lead car start to cross the stop line then go amber for following car:  waiting up to a minute for a gap seems nothing to do with  avoiding panic braking and everything to do with reducing delay to traffic at pedestrian expense, but that approx minute is a max so it could be set (much IMO) lower:

Again living streets suggest 30seconds as the absolute maximum...

however, it is not the crossing type's fault IMO:  they just need to set-up crossing controllers better....

*the US uses longer amber times on faster road junctions rather than a fixed amber time in combination with vehicle detection and delaying the change slightly. I think the UK view is that longer amber times encourage amber gambling so it is better to have  a predictable 3 seconds of amber and some fancy processing to delay change by a small amount....

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2016, 07:19:52 pm »
From TSRGD 2016 (don't ask!) pt17.1-17.9, p66:
Quote
17.7 When Puffin crossings were first developed in the 1990s, the Department’s
position was that in time, they would come to be seen as the default signal
controlled crossing type. Guidance written at the time included the view that
Puffin crossings were expected to become the most common form of crossing
and that in time crossings with pedestrian signals on the far side of the road
would be withdrawn.
17.8 However, in recent years this view has shifted. Whilst near-side crossings have
become the main form of crossing in most authorities, with the number of
Pelican crossings steadily declining, it is recognised that there will remain some
sites where near-side facilities are unsuitable. Accordingly a far-side option is
still available in TSRGD.
17.9 Sometimes known as Pedex, POTS or ‘one-can’ crossings, this uses the same
sequence as at a junction. The sequence includes a steady amber period for
traffic and a blackout period for pedestrians, and it can be provided with oncrossing
detection or with countdown. However, the two cannot be used
64
together as countdown requires a fixed blackout period. As at all other
crossings, zig-zag markings must be provided.

I don't like the names Pedex or POTS but one-can is amusing.

Quote
17.12 Pedestrian countdown signals are prescribed. The pedestrian countdown
system counts down the blackout period that forms part of the pedestrian phase
at traffic signal junctions. The blackout period is the period immediately after the
steady green figure (known as the 'invitation to cross') when neither the red nor
green figure shows. They may not be illuminated during any other part of the
signal sequence, and the Department will not consider authorising such uses. It
is not a requirement to provide countdown signals at crossings, but is an option
available for local authorities to consider
It does seem odd to me to countdown blackness. It would make more sense to my mind to start the countdown as soon as the green man appears.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/523916/DfT-circular-01-2016.pdf
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2016, 09:02:21 pm »
...It does seem odd to me to countdown blackness. It would make more sense to my mind to start the countdown as soon as the green man appears.
I think the idea is that the Green man is the 'invitation to cross' so there should be enough time for anyone starting during the green man to finish before on-road traffic gets a green, the countdown then indicates that crossing is working to those already crossing(is a blackout a blackout or a blown lamp/display?)  and shows time remaining (allowing faster arriving walkers to make their own decisions on whether to start crossing).

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2017, 12:59:29 pm »
 I came across a 'one-can' * a few days ago. So they actually do exist.

*Smart farside pedestrian crossing with on crossing detection to extend crossing time as needed up to a maximum.

When standalone(not at a signal controlled junction) Puffin crossings enter fixed time mode due to suspect sensor status: wouldn't it have been better to use flashing amber as the road signal during clearance (blank or red human figure)  rather than present a red signal to traffic on an empty crossing? If the flashing amber  at Pelicans was disrespected (with crossing pedestrians) due to lack of enforcement what will happen at  long reds at  crossings where pedestrians have already crossed?

Really what is needed is a mobile phone app.  Obviously, as you carry your mobile with you, it has a very good idea of your walking speed.  This could be linked by bluetooth to the crossing you are at and between them they could easily compute whether the time remaining is sufficient and your phone would issue a warning if not.  Then it's up to you if you chance it, of course, and the coroner would know too.
Sic transit and all that..

For a reason buried deep in the human brain, people are more willing to stop for a specific but needless signal than to prevent injury to another person (or even themselves).
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

For a reason buried deep in the human brain, people are more willing to stop for a specific but needless signal than to prevent injury to another person (or even themselves).
I hope you're right and what I saw one day at a smart crossing will remain uncommon, but I dunno...

Also, flashing amber would allow the 'emergency' clearance period to equal the normal maximum time allowed for clearance. 

I there  was  a will I presume  flashing amber offences could be dealt with builtinvideo cameras to encourage compliance.

Going through Doncaster center (north bridge) I came across a (farside) Toucan with the amber countdown above the green cycle symbol (in its usual place beside green walking figure):

obviously Doncaster doesn't share TfLs / (the DfTs ?) idea that both the green cycle symbol and countdown display can only be fitted in the one mutually exclusive position beside the green figure (and so forbade the combination) ....

I have a photo somewhere..,


Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #85 on: August 06, 2018, 02:49:54 pm »
obviously Doncaster doesn't share TfLs / (the DfTs ?) idea that both the green cycle symbol and countdown display can only be fitted in the one mutually exclusive position beside the green figure (and so forbade the combination) ....

TfL's Archway scheme (put in in 2016) has countdown timers throughout and most also have cycle symbols. They're mounted either side of the green man.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5665896,-0.1349961,3a,75y,245.45h,83.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUBxpr3gI2XhdDiD77owkWw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #86 on: August 06, 2018, 03:24:56 pm »
Having all four lights in one block, Doncaster style, looks far neater than having them spread out London-style. But why not put the green man and bike in the same circle together, as is done with nearsides?
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #87 on: August 06, 2018, 04:57:20 pm »
...TfL's Archway scheme (put in in 2016) has countdown timers throughout and most also have cycle symbols. They're mounted either side of the green man....
Tfl/DfT must have changed their mind about the cycle symbol and amber countdown unit being mutually exclusive :)

Having all four lights in one block, Doncaster style, looks far neater than having them spread out London-style. But why not put the green man and bike in the same circle together....?
It would make both a bit smaller (would that be acceptable to Dft?) unless an oval/fatter aspect is used but I suspect because it is because a new arrangement would need a new approval whereas the separate ones are already approved so simply rearranging them is easier.
(If rearranging is allowed mounting the green cycle symbol underneath the green figure would also seem reasonable).

I wonder why they don't hood the countdown: Tfls experiments led to the recommendation that they should....


Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2018, 09:38:43 am »


I love the 3D crossings in Iceland, which I believe are also being trialled in India,  China andNew Zealand

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2GCC9LSjYo" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2GCC9LSjYo</a>

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2018, 10:47:45 am »
I learnt yesterday, from the horse's mouth, that farsides with countdown are to be trialled in Bristol near Temple Meads. The whole area is being currently redeveloped. We also heard from elderlies that they find a countdown comforting, as it tells them they do or don't have time to get across, but council man said this has to be balanced against a shorter overall greenman time with countdown. So far, Bristol has been replacing pelicans with puffins since 2002. I'm not quite sure why things need to be trialled in Bristol when they're already in daily use in London and various other places.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2018, 10:59:35 am »
On the timing: not sure how it works for farsides with countdown, but for puffins the greenman is set at the time it takes a pedestrian to walk 2/3 of the crossing distance, at a speed of 1.2m/s. Beyond this there is greenman extension through person detection. However, average walking speed of over-65s is only 0.8m/s.

As an aside, apparently walking speed is a reliable predictor of life expectancy. This would indicate that the current crop of university students will all be dead by the time they're 30. (Yeah sure it must refer to some sort of unimpeded maximum walking speed, not an amble-stroll for coffee with mates between lectures, but that wouldn't allow me to complain about the pavement blockers!)
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2018, 12:14:52 pm »
As an aside, apparently walking speed is a reliable predictor of life expectancy. This would indicate that the current crop of university students will all be dead by the time they're 30.

They're probably going to a maths lecture.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2018, 05:20:22 pm »
Meanwhile back in the present, it was pointed out by the abovementioned horse's mouth that the bleeps which some crossings give don't just function as an indicator that it's safe to cross, they're also a beacon which helps blind people cross the road in a straight line.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2018, 06:53:49 pm »
https://www.citymetric.com/horizons/here-are-four-futuristic-new-designs-pedestrian-crossings-4309
What it says in the URL. "Stigmergic" is a new word to me.

I've seen similar to the "Line of sight" design in California. They were very effective for making the crossing visible and they lit a raised crossing which is a better design than the dropped curb, especially if you are pushing a heavy wheelchair or pushchair. A wheelchair with a large man on board is quite hard work to hold on a slopped curb.

The problem with the sensor design is that we have the equivalent design in a push button system, and the councils choose to make the pedestrians wait anyway, often even when there has been a while since the last person.
Quote from: Kim
^ This woman knows what she's talking about.

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2018, 09:18:08 pm »
Agree that a raised crossing is easier (and probably safer) for pedestrians. And definitely about the waiting!
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2018, 05:33:53 pm »
Here's a view of crossing the road before the invention of the zebra. It's something I came across on Youtube as a piece of music (play it with the sound off unless you like it) and I'm guessing from the cable cars it's San Francisco and from the clothes the year is maybe ~1910.

https://youtu.be/nvUeo5sagkA
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2018, 06:11:58 pm »
I'm guessing from the cable cars it's San Francisco and from the clothes the year is maybe ~1910.

In the comments below the video it suggests it is San Francisco from 1906, just before the earthquake. So I'd say that is a pretty good guess.

Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #98 on: October 28, 2018, 06:26:53 pm »
I don't think there are any streets in the UK that wide, and the speed of the vehicles and trams seem to be about 5mph, and big gaps between vehicles.

Maybe this is more relevant:
London Traffic Jams (1946)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ewnGT41tuE

Apparently zebra crossing were only introduced in the UK in 1949. Looking at videos of that period, traffic seems much much slower than today.


Re: Merged thread: Countdown graphics, Nearside pedestrian figures, etc etc
« Reply #99 on: October 28, 2018, 06:58:42 pm »
It seems to be filmed from a cable car, which probably doesn't do more than 5mph, but the cars and even horse carts are overtaking it. As are a couple of cyclists. Of course it's not directly applicable to anything in Britain other than a few roads in London and maybe one or two other big cities eg Park Lane or Knightsbridge – and even then not since the end of the first world war, but it's interesting to see the chaos and how people navigate it. The only rule of the road, as we would think of it, that anyone seems to obey is driving more or less on the right. Overtaking is done wherever you can, on either side. Most pedestrians stroll across, one or two run. Look at the man 2:25, strolls across, turns back to avoid the cable car, almost gets run over by one in the other direction he's just passed, then resumes his journey! Nobody gets across in one take.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)