Author Topic: Mike Hall RIP  (Read 18040 times)


Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #101 on: August 31, 2018, 10:52:41 pm »
"Australian coroners are responsible for investigating and determining the cause of death for those cases reported to them."

I get most of my knowledge about Coroners Courts from such as Midsummer Murders, and as far as I know there is not an opportunity to cross examine witnesses, so the need for Mike's family to go to the expense of hiring a lawyer is a question.

Midsomer Murders is i) fiction and ii) set in the UK, so I am at a loss to see what possible relevance you think it has to Mike Hall's death or the inquest thereinto, unless you are (yet again) choosing to behave like a trolling wanker.

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #102 on: September 01, 2018, 08:56:55 am »
https://www.courts.act.gov.au/magistrates/courts/coroners_court/information-about-the-coroners-court
Very useful, looks like the same as the U.K. the relevant bit is:

“Any person who, in the opinion of the Coroner, has a sufficient interest in the subject matter of the inquest may, upon application receive the leave of the Coroner to appear in person or be legally represented and examine and cross examine any witnesses relevant to the inquest.”

John

C-3PO

  • Human-cyborg relations
Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #103 on: September 01, 2018, 03:19:28 pm »
"Australian coroners are responsible for investigating and determining the cause of death for those cases reported to them."

I get most of my knowledge about Coroners Courts from such as Midsummer Murders, and as far as I know there is not an opportunity to cross examine witnesses, so the need for Mike's family to go to the expense of hiring a lawyer is a question.

Midsomer Murders is i) fiction and ii) set in the UK, so I am at a loss to see what possible relevance you think it has to Mike Hall's death or the inquest thereinto, unless you are (yet again) choosing to behave like a trolling wanker.

Many in yacf and Audax UK mourn Mike's death with great pain.

Please respect his untimely passing with some dignity.

This is not the place for blame-shifting or trolling.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #104 on: September 02, 2018, 01:37:54 am »
Fair enough.

Does anyone know what if any steps are being taken to enact PL in Britain?

In the states it wouldn't have a hope in hell passing.

Start a new thread you insensitive idiot.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #105 on: September 02, 2018, 07:02:00 am »
Why hasn't Polecat been banned?

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #106 on: September 02, 2018, 09:36:48 am »
Why hasn't Polecat been banned?

Humour value?

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #107 on: September 24, 2018, 10:55:18 am »

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #108 on: September 24, 2018, 11:09:40 am »
A nice line in victim blaming there.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #109 on: September 24, 2018, 11:13:20 am »
The headline is very unpleasant but I can understand why the sub has lifted that comment from the coroner's assistant out of the story.  It should really have been titled: Inexperienced and distracted driver kills normally dressed man on a bicycle.

The rest seems the usual shit - driver wasn't paying attention, kills cyclist, everyone asks what the cyclist was wearing.  The only odd thing is the comment that his rear light was hardly visible. I find that hard to believe.

Between the Disney abattoir and the chemical refinery

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #110 on: September 24, 2018, 11:18:55 am »
The rest seems the usual shit - driver wasn't paying attention, kills cyclist, everyone asks what the cyclist was wearing.  The only odd thing is the comment that his rear light was hardly visible. I find that hard to believe.

An article from an Australian site says the rear light was at the same height as the lights/reflectors on the barriers, as though somehow that was a problem (would you not be trying to avoid the barriers?!)

Phil W

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #111 on: September 24, 2018, 11:48:01 am »
The headline is very unpleasant but I can understand why the sub has lifted that comment from the coroner's assistant out of the story.  It should really have been titled: Inexperienced and distracted driver kills normally dressed man on a bicycle.

The rest seems the usual shit - driver wasn't paying attention, kills cyclist, everyone asks what the cyclist was wearing.  The only odd thing is the comment that his rear light was hardly visible. I find that hard to believe.

I have complained to the Guardian News & Media’s internal ombudsman guardian.readers@theguardian.com about the poor taste title.

See https://www.theguardian.com/info/2014/sep/12/-sp-how-to-make-a-complaint-about-guardian-or-observer-content if you wish to complain as well.

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #112 on: September 24, 2018, 11:52:02 am »
IT IS A DIFFICULT TIME FOR US ALL. AS C3PO HAS PUT IT.

PLEASE IF YOU ARE GOING TO COMMENT KEEP IT RELEVANT AND OBJECTIVE. AND THINK OF THOSE HAVING TO RE-LIVE EVENTS FROM SOME 18 MONTHS AGO.
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #113 on: September 24, 2018, 12:14:04 pm »
I got knocked off my bike on PBP 2003 by a kid on a scooter, while both of us were distracted by a cattle truck which was moving off the course to find a less congested route.

I was of course sleep-deprived at the time, so I wouldn't swear that my own reaction didn't contribute to the collision. I escaped with heavy bruising, and two buckled wheels, but reading this account makes me remember that it could have been a lot worse. I did wonder how it would have worked out if it had been. The judgement might have been pretty similar to the Australian one.

There was a fatality at PBP 2011 that would probably answer that question if I could find an inquest link. Bill Watts wrote about that and other fatalities in 2014. http://bill-watts.blogspot.com/2014/10/grief-onwheels-rememberingrandonneurs.html

My sympathies are with Mike's family, and with the families of others who have died doing what they loved.

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #114 on: September 24, 2018, 01:01:20 pm »
Anna (Mike's partner) has been posting on FB:

A long day in court today with nothing to report I'm afraid. I will keep you all update when I have something to report.
Thank you again for all the support and love. It's keeping me strong out here! Canberra and Melbourne cycling community have been amazingly supportive.
#BeMoreMike #NothingWorthDoingIsEverEasy

I have only just seen the Guardian article. It's a report of the first day of a three day inquest... There are another 2 days to get to the truth of what happened that morning. Anna xx

This article explains a little why I am here: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/anna-s-long-journey-to-bear-witness-for-cyclist-partner-at-inquest-20180923-p505hp.html
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #115 on: September 24, 2018, 01:20:21 pm »
The rest seems the usual shit - driver wasn't paying attention, kills cyclist, everyone asks what the cyclist was wearing.  The only odd thing is the comment that his rear light was hardly visible. I find that hard to believe.

An article from an Australian site says the rear light was at the same height as the lights/reflectors on the barriers, as though somehow that was a problem (would you not be trying to avoid the barriers?!)
To put some explanation/perspective on this, rural australian roads have barriers or posts continually along the road, mostly with red/white reflectors . Many of the roads have trees right up to the edge of the road, and the reflectors on posts are of great assistance in determining the bends in the road.

So *if* mike's light was the same height as the reflectors and *if* it was steady (rather than flashing), I can understand that it would very hard to distinguish from the reflectors.

However, if Mike had a flashing rear light, it would have stood out very well compared to the reflectors and been easily noticeable. Only a very inexperienced or innattentive driver would not pick out a flashing light among the red reflectors.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #116 on: September 24, 2018, 01:42:45 pm »
Headline has been changed to: "British ultra-endurance cyclist Mike Hall killed almost instantly, inquest told" but the Guardian URL remains the same at the moment.

As someone on LFGSS has said, it's almost certainly syndicated copy from the Australian Associated Press, not original Guardian content. But still...
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #117 on: September 24, 2018, 01:56:37 pm »
Although the headlines today have been somewhat distasteful, I hope that they won't deter people from looking critically at what happened. I don't think it's at all helpful to plead victim-blaming whenever any reporting fails to exonerate anyone other than the driver from any culpability in incidents such as these. Instead I suspect strongly there will probably be lessons I and other riders and organisers can learn from.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #118 on: September 25, 2018, 08:39:21 am »
I suspect strongly there will probably be lessons I and other riders and organisers can learn from.

Almost certainly, but out of consideration for this who knew Mike and will be finding all of this particularly distressing to relive, maybe that's a discussion for another time and another thread.
Between the Disney abattoir and the chemical refinery

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #119 on: September 25, 2018, 11:27:29 am »
The rest seems the usual shit - driver wasn't paying attention, kills cyclist, everyone asks what the cyclist was wearing.  The only odd thing is the comment that his rear light was hardly visible. I find that hard to believe.

An article from an Australian site says the rear light was at the same height as the lights/reflectors on the barriers, as though somehow that was a problem (would you not be trying to avoid the barriers?!)
To put some explanation/perspective on this, rural australian roads have barriers or posts continually along the road, mostly with red/white reflectors . Many of the roads have trees right up to the edge of the road, and the reflectors on posts are of great assistance in determining the bends in the road.

So *if* mike's light was the same height as the reflectors and *if* it was steady (rather than flashing), I can understand that it would very hard to distinguish from the reflectors.

However, if Mike had a flashing rear light, it would have stood out very well compared to the reflectors and been easily noticeable. Only a very inexperienced or innattentive driver would not pick out a flashing light among the red reflectors.
I'm not sure I understand, whether Mike stood out against the posts or not, surely the driver - who thought he'd hit a kangaroo - should have been aware of the side of the road?

Edit: missed a word

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hulver

  • I am a mole and I live in a hole.
Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #120 on: September 25, 2018, 12:58:53 pm »
To put some explanation/perspective on this, rural australian roads have barriers or posts continually along the road, mostly with red/white reflectors . Many of the roads have trees right up to the edge of the road, and the reflectors on posts are of great assistance in determining the bends in the road.

So *if* mike's light was the same height as the reflectors and *if* it was steady (rather than flashing), I can understand that it would very hard to distinguish from the reflectors.

However, if Mike had a flashing rear light, it would have stood out very well compared to the reflectors and been easily noticeable. Only a very inexperienced or innattentive driver would not pick out a flashing light among the red reflectors.

From the video I've seen of a car that was following him, his back light was steady, but there was a very large puddle of moving white light ahead of him where his front light was lighting up the road.

https://www.facebook.com/Bikepacking/videos/691735341190480/

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #121 on: September 25, 2018, 05:33:07 pm »
As ever, part of the story is about driver expectations. One witness was 'surprised' to see a cyclist on this road at that time.  It is possible that few of the drivers expected to see a cyclist...and therefore they weren't looking for one. Interestingly, several of them say they thought the cyclist was an animal, and the likelihood is that they do not exert the same care driving amongst animals as they a human. After all, there are no legal consequences, nor the same level of emotional consequences for them.  Several of the drivers report almost hitting/hitting Mike.

The other side of the coin with regards to these sorts of events are the responsibilities of the cyclists.It is no good siding with all cyclists because we are cyclists. These events are races, and at the top end the winner is not necessarily going to be the rider with the strongest physical characteristics but the rider who had the least sleep.  The elephant in the room is that for those intending to win, these events are a contest of sleep deprivation.

How would we feel if there were solo driving events across continents with no enforced sleep breaks, and drivers driving dangerously tired, with the similar risks to driving drunk?

In my view, regardless of the circumstances of this tragic event, this model of racing needs to change with enforced checkpoints with enforced rest and sleep. 

And yes, there is also an issue for audax...Not for people like me who can cover 100 miles at 18mph and earn enough time in hand for a full night's sleep, every night, on a multiday event...but for those forced to ride with little or no sleep.

Again, how would we view car drivers who drive almost non-stop for 3 days? In fact, with cycling it is even worse because the physical nature of the riding adds a huge element to the fatigue. Gross hypocrisy is at play here.

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #122 on: September 25, 2018, 06:03:31 pm »
I'll wait to see what the coroner says.


As will I, although I am aware that the coroner may be biased towards the driver due to the culture of car dominance.

Quote
One of the interesting things about this sort of tracker-based racing is that it acts like a tachograph. So enforced rest breaks could be accommodated within that formula.

Yep.

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #123 on: September 25, 2018, 06:15:27 pm »
I'll wait to see what the coroner says.


As will I, although I am aware that the coroner may be biased towards the driver due to the culture of car dominance.



He may echo your views upthread.

Quote
The rules to the 2017 Indian Pacific Wheels Race were tendered in court as evidence, and counsel assisting read some sections regarding rider safety aloud.

"No-one will help a rider if things go wrong in any way," he said while reading from the rule book.

He said the 2017 edition of the rules were "effectively silent" on safety issues, though they were changed ahead of the anticipated 2018 race.

Some riders complete up to 400 kilometres a day, sleeping for as little as four hours a night.

They ride without support vehicles.

The inquest heard the route chosen by the race organisers is not the most direct route from Fremantle to Sydney, instead taking participants on "smaller, challenging roads".

Senior Constable Adam Potts told the inquest the Monaro Highway was not a common route for road cyclists, given its heavy traffic and narrow path.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-24/celebrated-endurance-cyclist-mike-hall-22difficult-to-see22-i/10299444

Re: Mike Hall RIP
« Reply #124 on: September 25, 2018, 06:23:25 pm »
He may, and if he made a general comment I would agree with him. However,  in Mike's case it is hard to know whether his fatigue contributed to his collision. There is nothing to suggest that he was not riding anywhere other than where he should have been in terms of road position when the collision occured.

The only reported comment regarding Mike's riding was from the lorry driver who said Mike cut across him when Mike was turning (I presume turned right with an oncoming lorry), and that Mike cut it fine.  IIRC one of Mike's final tweets was that he was so tired he was having trouble seeing (or words to that effect)...