Author Topic: [LEL17] LEL Suggestions Box  (Read 31229 times)

hulver

  • I am a mole and I live in a hole.
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #125 on: August 08, 2017, 10:27:54 pm »
Time stamps in the Pocklington - Louth track caused problems in Edge units. Any hiking type unit such as Etrex , GPSMap had no issues what so ever with the track. All test rides using that track of which there were about a dozen were done on hiking type units and had no issues. Website route pages had no issues with displaying that track correctly. So I had no reason to suspect there was a problem or look inside the supplied GPX tracks I'd been passed to put on the website route pages.

It only became apparent Edge units had an issue with that track during the event.  Which indicates not a single Edge user had actually checked to ensure everything worked correctly with the official tracks till the very last minute. Or if they had had issues they didn't think to let the LEL team know. Whilst we were able to remove the time stamps and load a new GPX track to the website. It wouldn't be practical for everyone to access that and get it on their Edge units. We did pass a message to Pocklington. The obvious thing for a GPS user is to reverse and use the northbound Louth Pocklington track already on the GPS.

I warned one rider about the GPS file problems (we were warning everybody coming south about it) and he said "Yes, I saw that weeks ago, but I always just use the supplied track as a guide an build my own anyway". I almost asked then if he'd got in touch to let anybody know, but I already knew the answer to that.

The problem with reversing the track, was that very few of the riders knew how to do it. I'm sure that their units could do it, but they didn't know how and I wasn't going to start fiddling with them to try and work it out.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #126 on: August 08, 2017, 10:34:54 pm »
And the solution is?

Riders will use GPS devices, some of them will fall over, some riders will not be able to repair the problem themselves. LEL could deliberately make no provision at all for repairing riders' bicycles (self-sufficiency, of course) but that seems a little harsh.
One solution would be for those recommending GPS* to setup a support group for those riders. Everyone wins - simples!    :P

*
(click to show/hide)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #127 on: August 09, 2017, 08:37:04 am »
I recommended GPS to any foreign riders doing LEL. Very few countries have routesheets as complex and with such closely-spaced turns as LEL's.

As long as they know how to use them. Having an error in the file from Pocklington going south was a real nightmare when working at the front desk. Some people could handle it fine, but some didn't have a clue what to do. We had one volunteer who was familiar enough with the various units to be able to update some, but I think she was the only one. I didn't feel comfortable playing with a GPS I didn't know how to use and potentially doing something to kill the riders data or future routes.


Time stamps in the Pocklington - Louth track caused problems in Edge units. Any hiking type unit such as Etrex , GPSMap had no issues what so ever with the track. All test rides using that track of which there were about a dozen were done on hiking type units and had no issues. Website route pages had no issues with displaying that track correctly. So I had no reason to suspect there was a problem or look inside the supplied GPX tracks I'd been passed to put on the website route pages.

It only became apparent Edge units had an issue with that track during the event.  Which indicates not a single Edge user had actually checked to ensure everything worked correctly with the official tracks till the very last minute. Or if they had had issues they didn't think to let the LEL team know. Whilst we were able to remove the time stamps and load a new GPX track to the website. It wouldn't be practical for everyone to access that and get it on their Edge units. We did pass a message to Pocklington. The obvious thing for a GPS user is to reverse and use the northbound Louth Pocklington track already on the GPS.

You see the same issue with GPX tracks supplied on much shorter Audax UK events. One or two I've had to adjust and give feedback to the org so they work on my GPS correctly and aren't truncated etc. 

I've also seen a FB post where someone claims the LEL Route took them down a bridle way between Spalding and St Ives. As the LEL GPX is a track only it indicates they were trying to navigate as a route and let their GPS determine which way to go, not following the pre determined GPX track as supplied.

As always it just showing a greater level of GPS use and also inexperience amongst riders.

1. Using a GPX file you didn't create? Check it meets your needs on your unit, and the way you use it, and look for any issues, well in advance. If you find any let the organiser know and adjust  as necessary.
2. Have a back up in case you missed something in 1. I remember on one Audax I'd forgotten to load one of the GPX tracks. Backup route sheet came out and I finished off the ride.

I never trust a GPX provided by any org (including the fab ones Nick produces) and always load into something like RWGPS to review and edit/amend as required - it's all part of route familiarisation init!

I'm not sure how a user of an edge unit would be able to check the route in advance without loading it into something else first, they operate differently to the walking type GPS units you refer to, so at best you could look at the map of the route, but perhaps not see the order of points, and probably not diagnose track point times as a problem.

Plus, never enable the Garmin TBT navigation...  whilst I had the usual data loss issues with my Edge unit, one thing I didn't have was navigation issues with it!

Why anyone would embark on such a long adventure relying on only one form of navigation is beyond me.  In addition to the Garmin, I had offline RWPGS and 2 copies of the route sheet were never deployed but were tested in advance and there if needed!
Regards,

Joergen

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #128 on: August 09, 2017, 10:24:42 am »
Regardless, this problem is going to continue. Are we prepared to smile and wave goodbye to these riders as they disappear off-route and time-out?

Without even being there I'm willing to bet that many of the problems stemmed from a combination of the one-track-per-leg with Edge 800 or similar models of GPS, which are among the most popular with cyclists.  Unfortunately that particular model has a bug which means it doesn't play well with multiple tracks.  The bug isn't apparent in 'normal' use for day-rides requiring only one track, so many 800 users don't even know the problem exists.
The 800 is already an old model, and I think it's reasonable to assume that there will be far fewer of them in the wild in 4 years' time, so hopefully that particular problem will go away.

Interesting about the timestamp problem affecting Edges.  On the older-model Etrexes, a track that is corrupt in this way will generate a 'data error' message when its loaded into the GPS - however these error messages are too easily clicked-through and ignored.  Still, no-one knows better than Phil, how to 'clean' a track.  :thumbsup:

Quote from: Phil W
1. Using a GPX file you didn't create? Check it meets your needs on your unit, ...
A big +1 ^

Quote from:  another thread
... I hadn't spotted (because I don't look at gps files or routesheets when I download them), ...
::-)
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #129 on: August 09, 2017, 10:53:10 am »
Helly I think you should rename this thread 'Hindsight is a wonderful thing'  ;)

 ;) ;D

I'm in Foreign Climes with Dodgy Internets so keeping fairly quiet...

I started this thread with a useful, non-judgmental, novel suggestion for a reason...

Vince

  • Can't climb; won't climb
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #130 on: August 09, 2017, 12:06:38 pm »
I was actually meaning an old skool noticeboard for within the control.  For the stuff like 'tell qwe123 that they've found their usb memory stick full of pR0n in the bogs at such-and-such control and will keep it on the control desk for them to collect southbound'; 'the vounteer partner of rider abc987 has fallen asleep under the dishwasher and says don't bother to wake them up unless abc987 is exhibiting actual tears or blood when they arrive'; 'rider xyz001 says to tell xyz002 "I looked everywhere for you and couldn't find you so am setting off hoping to find you on the road and please don't divorce me if you haven't actually left yet and were actually just locked in the portaloo"'; 'DON'T USE the 3rd cubicle from the left in the men's toilets' type things.  Or 'hi viz vests in box below - help yourself for outdoor shifts'.
I didn't use it, but there was a facility to add notes to a rider's details which I hope would have popped up when details were scanned.
A simple one. Shorten the page names on the web thingy. We typically had three pages open in tabs - Scanning, rider's details and the excellent stats page, All the tabs were named 'London Edinbu'.
I second getting feed back between scanning a bar code and waiting for the web page to respond - the 15 second rule was good, but we did have several duplicate scans when the performance was very slow.
I know the server size was increased and this improved thing greatly, but perhaps query the rider tracking details/statistics from a second database, preserving performance in the scanning page.

For food, I would suggest a large menu with what is available now and what in 30 minutes time, so riders don't waste time queuing up to find there is nothing to suit them.

For me, next time I will take both my tool boxes and work stand.
216km from Marsh Gibbon

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #131 on: August 09, 2017, 06:25:42 pm »
And the solution is?

Riders will use GPS devices, some of them will fall over, some riders will not be able to repair the problem themselves. LEL could deliberately make no provision at all for repairing riders' bicycles (self-sufficiency, of course) but that seems a little harsh.
One solution would be for those recommending GPS* to setup a support group for those riders. Everyone wins - simples!    :P

*
(click to show/hide)

I believe the appropriate response involves sex and travel.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #132 on: August 09, 2017, 07:11:53 pm »
I was actually meaning an old skool noticeboard for within the control.
I didn't use it, but there was a facility to add notes to a rider's details which I hope would have popped up when details were scanned.

I clearly haven't made this clear enough.... my bold above.  I mean a noticeboard, not electonic, for knackered volunteers to communicate stuff to other knackered volunteers within a single control. 

Anything computerised doesn't work for this because most volunteers aren't using computers most of the time. 

I think a noticeboard could help to avoid the communication-by-chinese-whispers which is fairly inevitable when communication WITHIN the control, during the event, is verbal and people are working bizarre shift patterns 24 hours a day for several days, with the added complication of foreign languages.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #133 on: August 09, 2017, 07:17:59 pm »
We had a white board at Brampton with various messages for riders and volunteers if I remember rightly (I was mainly in the dining hall and kitchen) .

Paul

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #134 on: August 09, 2017, 08:34:00 pm »
Did it get used, and was it useful?

We had a noticeboard in BC behind the comtrol desk, but it was a pinboard that got used for info for riders (and for pinning up stray lost property in hope of re-uniting it with its rider).  I was looking at it on the last day and thinking 'we should have put volunteer info on the back of that!'.

Phil W

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #135 on: August 09, 2017, 09:22:42 pm »
I know the server size was increased and this improved thing greatly, but perhaps query the rider tracking details/statistics from a second database, preserving performance in the scanning page.

Bit more nuanced than that. There's the web servers and DB server. The web servers scale horizontally the DB vertically.  There's also a clustered memcached  servers layer in front of the DB. So most the time public tracking data was being pulled from memcached servers memory and not going near the DB server. Then we have time limited caching rules on origin servers, caching in a CDN, caching in your ISP, and finally caching in the browser all working to reduce load.

There's a however coming as you might have guessed. Cloud servers are priced for a baseline performance of CPU memory etc with burst capability. That's how they (and you) keep the costs down and cram so much into so little. So what does this mean?

As long as your server is running at or below the baseline CPU you gain CPU credits.  If you are running above the baseline CPU you've paid for you use credits. The max the credits can be is a 100% CPU for an hour. So if you need a burst of CPU above the baseline for a short period it works great. But on balance you need your server CPU to be at or just below the baseline most of the time. So you choose and pay for one of their server sizes to meet that. With me so far?

For the web servers it's easy you scale horizontally in and out as demand dictates. I.e. You add and remove servers automatically based on rules you've set as required to match demand. No outage required and done automatically.

The DB server is trickier. You can generally scale down the DB server without an outage. To scale up a DB server (in AWS at least) requires an outage of the server and therefore entire website.  So it's not an easy decision to make mid event, but it was necessary.  We asked controls to make their scanning offline whilst I did the upgrade and we had the outage (10 mins). Then scanning made online again and the scans came up automatically to the website. The DB server had exhausted its CPU credits, and was throttling the requests, it's wasn't an I/O bottle neck of any sort. When  the DB was not being throttled it had millisecond response time.  It lost its credits very slowly And I was hoping it'd recover them and I wouldn't need that outage. Alas. Had we not relaxed the rate limit on public tracking we would not have required the DB server upgrade. But we did for a better user experience. The cost was the upgrade becoming necessary later in the event.

DB Replication with a read only replica.  You actually get a lot less for your money than just having a suitably sized DB server for the  load during the actual event when buying that in the cloud, and it's not necessary for LEL. I did look at it, but it'd be a colossal waste of money that could be spent elsewhere in the event. Sorry there's no food for the riders, Phil spent it all on the website.

Before LEL 2017 we didn't really have a clear idea of the size and scale of what we needed in terms of servers etc. and how big the demand  would be at different times in build up and during the event to drive that. The company that hosted the LEL 2013 website kept that pretty much to themselves. As you would.  Plus the interest and demand this time is several orders of magnitude more than 2013 based on what information we do have to compare.

Cloud computing is great and allowed us to deal with unbelievable interest and demand on tracking during the event. But it can also very quickly take all your money if you're not careful.  You have to strike a balance.  We've got a very good handle on what we need now for that balance and how much it costs to deliver. (well money man will when I send him my latest expense claim)

Most of the time I could monitor and manage the servers via my IPad. A couple of times I had to connect directly to the servers though. Control / school firewalls meant going home to do that as they blocked Internet traffic that isn't through a browser.

One last  thing with AWS costs. You have fully pre paid pricing , part pre paid pricing, on demand pricing, and spot pricing.  Spot pricing can be the cheapest but isn't guaranteed you'll get the server capacity when you need it. Pre paid is cheapest for guaranteed capacity but you pre pay for a size for a fixed period.  On demand most flexible but most expensive by a long way.  So there's many things to juggle to give a good balance of stability and  performance of the website against costs to LEL. Without costs getting out of control. We are also subject to currency fluctuations as AWS price things in $ dollars. Unlimited budget, the things I could do..

You also have to go back to the demand during the event and blink. By Wednesday we'd reached sustained 31,000 browsers sessions and 125,000 requests per minute. We peaked at approx 103,500  concurrent browser sessions connected to the website and 250,000 requests per minute for tracking data. I think we held up pretty well even if  I needed to undertake some active management a couple of times.

I'd like see more website elements black box'd that needed some active management this time, so that someone with an IT operations background could look after them via a browser interface in the future.

Right, back to as you were. I intend to ride LEL 2021.

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #136 on: August 09, 2017, 10:27:33 pm »
I know the server size was increased and this improved thing greatly, but perhaps query the rider tracking details/statistics from a second database, preserving performance in the scanning page.

Bit more nuanced than that.

[ ... Stuff ... ]

Right, back to as you were. I intend to ride LEL 2021.

Thank *fuck* you know what that lot meant.


Phil W

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #137 on: August 09, 2017, 10:33:41 pm »
I'm not sure how a user of an edge unit would be able to check the route in advance without loading it into something else first, they operate differently to the walking type GPS units you refer to, so at best you could look at the map of the route, but perhaps not see the order of points, and probably not diagnose track point times as a problem

It's quite simple. Even with the latest Edge units they still appear as a USB drive when you plug them in. At least on Windows. You can drop a GPX file in the new files folder on the SD card or internal memory of an edge and when you unplug and switch on and off it will convert to fit file format. Then you try navigating it and you see when it brings up the map page there's a long straight line instead of the LEL track you thought you'd loaded.

In fact I did this with a German fellow who caught me at Thirsk control on the Monday. He was worried and asked if I'd help him put the fixed Pocklington - Louth  track on the website onto his Edge GPS unit

You don't need intermediate software to put GPX files on an Edge and use them.

P.S. All of the trackpoints were present in the GPX file Edges objected to. It just those south of the Humber Bridge had time stamps in them dates May 2013. In fact it's probably the conversion to fit that it does internally that failed when it didn't know what to do with the timestamps it's GPX to fit parser encountered

Phil W

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #138 on: August 09, 2017, 10:44:01 pm »
I know the server size was increased and this improved thing greatly, but perhaps query the rider tracking details/statistics from a second database, preserving performance in the scanning page.

Bit more nuanced than that.

[ ... Stuff ... ]

Right, back to as you were. I intend to ride LEL 2021.

Thank *fuck* you know what that lot meant.

How do those Liam Nielson lines go?

I have skills, very specialised skills, I will find you, and I will make you suffer, it will hurt, and I will kill you. Have no doubt about my skills. Click.....

Phil W

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #139 on: August 09, 2017, 10:56:19 pm »
I was actually meaning an old skool noticeboard for within the control.
I didn't use it, but there was a facility to add notes to a rider's details which I hope would have popped up when details were scanned.

I clearly haven't made this clear enough.... my bold above.  I mean a noticeboard, not electonic, for knackered volunteers to communicate stuff to other knackered volunteers within a single control. 

Anything computerised doesn't work for this because most volunteers aren't using computers most of the time. 

I think a noticeboard could help to avoid the communication-by-chinese-whispers which is fairly inevitable when communication WITHIN the control, during the event, is verbal and people are working bizarre shift patterns 24 hours a day for several days, with the added complication of foreign languages.

Absolutely, I had to resist quite strongly some ideas for "stuff" we could do via the website. Some stuff is still best done face to face, whiteboard or pen and paper.

Vince

  • Can't climb; won't climb
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #140 on: August 09, 2017, 11:54:37 pm »
Phil, thanks for the most detailed explanation of the web server charging model etc.
216km from Marsh Gibbon

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #141 on: August 09, 2017, 11:57:25 pm »
I'm not sure how a user of an edge unit would be able to check the route in advance without loading it into something else first, they operate differently to the walking type GPS units you refer to, so at best you could look at the map of the route, but perhaps not see the order of points, and probably not diagnose track point times as a problem

It's quite simple. Even with the latest Edge units they still appear as a USB drive when you plug them in. At least on Windows. You can drop a GPX file in the new files folder on the SD card or internal memory of an edge and when you unplug and switch on and off it will convert to fit file format. Then you try navigating it and you see when it brings up the map page there's a long straight line instead of the LEL track you thought you'd loaded.

In fact I did this with a German fellow who caught me at Thirsk control on the Monday. He was worried and asked if I'd help him put the fixed Pocklington - Louth  track on the website onto his Edge GPS unit

You don't need intermediate software to put GPX files on an Edge and use them.

P.S. All of the trackpoints were present in the GPX file Edges objected to. It just those south of the Humber Bridge had time stamps in them dates May 2013. In fact it's probably the conversion to fit that it does internally that failed when it didn't know what to do with the timestamps it's GPX to fit parser encountered

Yes, but... plenty of straight roads also (see the leg up the A7 for a good example).  I always check that the route appears on the map when I put a section of an audax on to the GPS - but I don't look any further than does it start and stop where expected, this is usually at the 12km scale.  I look at the intermediate detail elsewhere.  If there is some mix up in the sequencing of track points, it would be hard to see without zooming in and following the track at sub-3km scale.

Personally - you'd be daft to take the a GPX and plonk it on your GPS and expect to be trouble free for 1400 km without some cursory pre-look with a proper tool. YMMV but I prefer to de-risk where I can by some level of route familiarisation :)

ETA: plus I don't use GPX and TCX are more reliable and give a cue card on the device IMHO
Regards,

Joergen

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #142 on: August 10, 2017, 12:08:16 am »
We did put labels on the counter top at Barney, but seeing these would have required hungry riders to lift their eyes from the sight of large platters of nosh, so the experiment was not entirely successful ;D.

However, a genius idea has just occurred to me, inspired by a recollection from CrinklyUncle and CrinklyAuntie's wedding placecards



Pictures of moos and oinkers and chooks would have massively simplified the conversations on a number of occasions!  (lego optional)

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #143 on: August 10, 2017, 12:22:56 am »
Talking of signs. This is only a very minor one, but could the 2021 banners have a picture of a bike/cyclist on them as well as the event logo and name please?

While I was marshalling outside of the main bulge coming through, I had a lot of people come up and ask what sort of event it was
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #144 on: August 10, 2017, 09:13:05 am »
I always check that the route appears on the map when I put a section of an audax on to the GPS - but I don't look any further than does it start and stop where expected, this is usually at the 12km scale.  I look at the intermediate detail elsewhere.  If there is some mix up in the sequencing of track points, it would be hard to see without zooming in and following the track at sub-3km scale.

The point is that no amount of detailed checking using software is going to guarantee that the track works on the GPS.  Because software and online planners are generally designed to be tolerant of messy code (in the same way web browsers are) but some Garmins are not, and different models react differently to different things.  But I agree it can be a bit of conundrum, to check a track or course properly when you are actually located 100s of miles away.  That's why the only real guarantee is to rewrite or at least clean the track yourself, using methods that you know work for your GPS.  (Such as, Phil's excellent online utility.)
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

mmmmartin

  • BPB 1/1: PBP 0/1
    • FNRttC
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #145 on: August 10, 2017, 04:07:17 pm »
I'd suggest a WhatsApp group for volunteers so we could pass info around among ourselves (eg - big group leaving Moffat now, ETA Edinburgh four hours) or maybe one for controllers only (eg deranged rider* leaving Eskdalemuir on blue bike needs TLC ETA Brampton five hours).

But then we'd need decent wifi and we'd probs have to install it ourselves (this can be done), schools tend to shut down their wifi pretty closely.
(click to show/hide)

In passing, this soshul meeja stuff seems to me to be more comprehensive this time than last, and no doubt will be more so next time. For instance, the OMM, a mountain marathon, a few years ago had live streaming of the finish line and that was from the middle of nowhere in central Wales. Attention to this doesn't really improve the rider experience, IMO, and is a "nice-to-have" rather than "must-do". But asking one volunteer at each control to do some social media stuff would increase the profile of the event, and help relatives who are tracking riders.
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #146 on: August 10, 2017, 06:00:59 pm »
You can also access WhatsApp via a desktop PC.
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #147 on: August 10, 2017, 09:10:54 pm »
Did it get used, and was it useful?

We had a noticeboard in BC behind the comtrol desk, but it was a pinboard that got used for info for riders (and for pinning up stray lost property in hope of re-uniting it with its rider).  I was looking at it on the last day and thinking 'we should have put volunteer info on the back of that!'.

Couldn't really be 100% about information for volunteers though most of the rider information seemed to be aimed at the people manning the control ie: rider **32 brevet left at Thirsk ,rider **21 wallet found at BC etc as they would be scanning the rider in so could tell them. The rest of the volunteers consulted the "chart of confusion" which had the ever evolving rota on  ;D

Paul

bhoot

  • MemSec (ex-Mrs RRtY)
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #148 on: August 11, 2017, 06:06:42 pm »
Clear expectations about how much support DNFers can expect with getting themselves back to the start.
This might have been useful. I found myself as travel advisor to quite a few DNFs at Brampton, explaining to them how to book themselves and bikes back to London on the train. It's not that easy - and the savings by using the advance booking system (even for trains later the same day) were significant (£50 vs £115 walk up fare). On Monday 31st I merrily used the Virgin East Coast website with some success, come Tues 1st August they had moved completely to their new "improved" booking site with no bike reservation option. So I went over to GWR. Still had some issues with riders who had left their credit cards in their car at Loughton (why?) and a couple of Indian riders with prepaid mastercards which weren't useful at all.
In hindsight it would have been useful to have a sheet giving details generally of how to book bikes on trains which we could have given out.  Even for UK riders who don't usually travel by train it can be a bit tricky.

Maybe we went beyond the call of duty with this, but for the overseas riders there was a point where I felt it was a hospitality issue - and putting myself in their position I would have been grateful for the same assistance.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: LEL Suggestions Box
« Reply #149 on: August 11, 2017, 06:16:06 pm »
bhoot, people have almost always given AUKs heaps of assistance when riding overseas events. It seems only fair to repay the favour.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...