Author Topic: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes  (Read 3211 times)

whosatthewheel

Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« on: August 12, 2017, 06:28:39 pm »
Would there be an appetite for a permanent brevet much like the French ones (Ventoux etc...) obviously Bwlch-Y-Groes is not Ventoux, but it's tough nonetheless and one of the few climbs with three ascents?

https://www.strava.com/activities/1130006755

vorsprung

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Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 07:49:31 pm »
Anyone can do a permanent and recent shifts in the rules allowing GPS validition would seem to make this much easier.  Are you a member of AUK?  Just do it!   Anyone can do a  perm
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whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2017, 08:52:35 pm »
I am, might do... need to look into AAA regulations, 'cause obviously I'd like this to be an AAA event

vorsprung

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Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2017, 09:37:53 am »
I am, might do... need to look into AAA regulations, 'cause obviously I'd like this to be an AAA event

Talk to Oliver Iles and see what the current best guess method is for finding ascent.  Most of the online methods are wrong but he will have an opinion on which is least wrong.  Riding the course with a GPS that has a barometric source (like a eTrex 30) is, I believe the best way to get a figure.

Once you have a figure it has to exceed the minimum climb for the distance.  100km has to have more than 1500m ascent to qualify for example.
If this is ok then the AAA points = the ascent in thousands of metres.  So 2100m ascent is 2AAA points

All this info is easy to find on the AUK website
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whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 04:00:31 pm »
I would like to keep it short and punchy... also, the roads that connect the three sides are not very nice... for instance to go from lake Vyrnwy to Dinas Mawddway one has to take quite a long stretch of the A 458, which is not very nice....

so it look like it will be 50-60 km with 1300 vertical mt... should be 1.3  AAA... according to any tool I have used and my own GPS measurements .
I have seen other 50 km events with 1.3 AAA in the perms, so that should work.

The idea is that I expect people will submit GPX tracks these days... but I will supply info controls for those who don't and a start/finish control in Bala.


Martin

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Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 06:40:05 pm »
I've done it twice on the Irish Mail (from one direction only) it's an iconic place definitely worth visiting;

not sure how you will sell the award though. Nice little medals like the GdS are sought after maybe something like that?

whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 07:13:46 pm »
I've done it twice on the Irish Mail (from one direction only) it's an iconic place definitely worth visiting;

not sure how you will sell the award though. Nice little medals like the GdS are sought after maybe something like that?

... or a printed certificate on nice thick paper with the time written by hand... it's hard to commit into buying a large amount of medals and maybe realising two years down the line only 3 people have done it.
Would it appeal? Would it be ignored? Would it become a classic and be ran every year as an event too?

Martin

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Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2017, 07:28:01 pm »
medals are £1.50 a pop to buy with a minimum order of 100; I thought I'd only sell 30 but have now bought 300!

a 50k calendar event is a bit niche IMO

maybe branch out to other climbs and collect 5 for the set?


vorsprung

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Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 07:28:13 pm »

Would it appeal? Would it be ignored? Would it become a classic and be ran every year as an event too?

now you are getting ahead of yourself

register the route

make it with 3 ascents or something so you can compare it with the Ventoux perm

ride it on a nice sunny day and take some photos.  Do a write up for Arrivee

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whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 07:47:48 pm »

Would it appeal? Would it be ignored? Would it become a classic and be ran every year as an event too?

now you are getting ahead of yourself

register the route

make it with 3 ascents or something so you can compare it with the Ventoux perm

ride it on a nice sunny day and take some photos.  Do a write up for Arrivee

Rode it yesterday, not sunny, but it's scenic in any weather... good tip re. Arrivee!




Brakeless

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Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2017, 09:59:55 am »
I've done it twice on the Irish Mail (from one direction only) it's an iconic place definitely worth visiting;

not sure how you will sell the award though. Nice little medals like the GdS are sought after maybe something like that?

... or a printed certificate on nice thick paper with the time written by hand...

It's an Audax . Printing time is irrelevant as well as being a bit sh1t.

whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2017, 10:25:46 am »


It's an Audax . Printing time is irrelevant as well as being a bit sh1t.

They do print times on the brevet cards...

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 05:51:51 pm »
For what it`s worth here`s my Strava details from September 2014 https://www.strava.com/activities/227555740

Started at Foel on A458 thence to Dinas Mawddwy to do the hardest side first of all: from there down to Bala and back over Hirnant Pass to Lake Vyrnwy. Then do climb out of lake Vyrnwy to Bwlch Y Groes and down back to Bala and then return that leg to climb from Llanuwchllyn down to Lake Vyrnwy  to go back to Foel . 129 km 2400 m ascent. 2.5 AAA points.
....after the `tarte de pommes`, and  fortified by a couple of shots of limoncellos,  I flew up the Col de Bavella whilst thunderstorms rolled around the peaks above

whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2017, 06:03:18 pm »
For what it`s worth here`s my Strava details from September 2014 https://www.strava.com/activities/227555740

Started at Foel on A458 thence to Dinas Mawddwy to do the hardest side first of all: from there down to Bala and back over Hirnant Pass to Lake Vyrnwy. Then do climb out of lake Vyrnwy to Bwlch Y Groes and down back to Bala and then return that leg to climb from Llanuwchllyn down to Lake Vyrnwy  to go back to Foel . 129 km 2400 m ascent. 2.5 AAA points.

Beautiful ride and impressive climbing speed up the monster! The Brevet is going to be similar, but I want to avoid the A 458, which is not very nice, so once down in Dinas, there will be a U turn. The downside of my route is that one has to go down the pass, which is very steep, but with a bit of audacity and plenty of care... surviving has proved possible

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 06:33:04 pm »
For what it`s worth here`s my Strava details from September 2014 https://www.strava.com/activities/227555740

Started at Foel on A458 thence to Dinas Mawddwy to do the hardest side first of all: from there down to Bala and back over Hirnant Pass to Lake Vyrnwy. Then do climb out of lake Vyrnwy to Bwlch Y Groes and down back to Bala and then return that leg to climb from Llanuwchllyn down to Lake Vyrnwy  to go back to Foel . 129 km 2400 m ascent. 2.5 AAA points.

Beautiful ride and impressive climbing speed up the monster! The Brevet is going to be similar, but I want to avoid the A 458, which is not very nice, so once down in Dinas, there will be a U turn. The downside of my route is that one has to go down the pass, which is very steep, but with a bit of audacity and plenty of care... surviving has proved possible
Dont' forget, riders on longer brevets have been known to do that descent by accident :)

I was going to mention the climb of Hirnant. I haven't ridden the Dinas road (madness!), but the descent off the Bwlch towards Bala, and road from Bala via Hirnant to Lake Vyrnwy are two of my nicest memories from the 2 Audaxes I'e ridden in the area  :thumbsup:

So I'd be more interested in a perm that looped round via Hirnant than a simple triple up-down-repeat. Just MHO.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2017, 06:40:14 pm »
For what it`s worth here`s my Strava details from September 2014 https://www.strava.com/activities/227555740

Started at Foel on A458 thence to Dinas Mawddwy to do the hardest side first of all: from there down to Bala and back over Hirnant Pass to Lake Vyrnwy. Then do climb out of lake Vyrnwy to Bwlch Y Groes and down back to Bala and then return that leg to climb from Llanuwchllyn down to Lake Vyrnwy  to go back to Foel . 129 km 2400 m ascent. 2.5 AAA points.

Beautiful ride and impressive climbing speed up the monster! The Brevet is going to be similar, but I want to avoid the A 458, which is not very nice, so once down in Dinas, there will be a U turn. The downside of my route is that one has to go down the pass, which is very steep, but with a bit of audacity and plenty of care... surviving has proved possible
Dont' forget, riders on longer brevets have been known to do that descent by accident :)

I was going to mention the climb of Hirnant. I haven't ridden the Dinas road (madness!), but the descent off the Bwlch towards Bala, and road from Bala via Hirnant to Lake Vyrnwy are two of my nicest memories from the 2 Audaxes I'e ridden in the area  :thumbsup:

So I'd be more interested in a perm that looped round via Hirnant than a simple triple up-down-repeat. Just MHO.

The idea is to have a Welsh equivalent of the Cingles du Ventoux or the Brevet del Mortirolo... if I fit in the Hirnant pass, then it is a different ride. Many rides by John Hamilton visit the area, I assume some of them are permanent... I am actually doing one in September (Beyond Shropshire) which goes there.
As views go, the Hirnant pass is nice, but Bwlch Y Groes is better...  :thumbsup:

mattc

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Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2017, 06:49:10 pm »
The idea is to have a Welsh equivalent of the Cingles du Ventoux or the Brevet del Mortirolo... if I fit in the Hirnant pass, then it is a different ride.
Yes of course, I totally get your plan  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2017, 06:51:32 pm »
I`ve once done down the steep side (and then back up again) and frankly it was a bit unpleasant, worries about overheating rims :( , and if wet it would be  well horrid. I personally also very much like Hirnant as it has an entirely different feel to it.

However you`re the ultimate judge on it all as you`re the one doing the work to get it up and running so I wish you all the very best with whatever you finally settle on  :thumbsup:

--and it will be a very demanding and wonderful ride too  ;D
....after the `tarte de pommes`, and  fortified by a couple of shots of limoncellos,  I flew up the Col de Bavella whilst thunderstorms rolled around the peaks above

whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2017, 06:56:42 pm »
I`ve once done down the steep side (and then back up again) and frankly it was a bit unpleasant, worries about overheating rims :( , and if wet it would be  well horrid. I personally also very much like Hirnant as it has an entirely different feel to it.

However you`re the ultimate judge on it all as you`re the one doing the work to get it up and running so I wish you all the very best with whatever you finally settle on  :thumbsup:

I would avoid the descent, but there is no other way to get to the bottom Dinas side avoiding a busy A road with fast moving cars. The descent is not too bad if you stop once or twice to take a photo and cool the rims/discs. The views are stunning, totally worth it. There are brevets with equally steep descents... think of Pendle 600, Knock Ventoux or Mille Pennines for instance. 
The ascent is a classic, one of the hardest climbs in the country and of the three sides the only one which is really challenging... down and up seems the only way

This is the one I have submitted earlier today

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/24213350

U.N.Dulates

  • aka John Hamilton
Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2017, 10:10:48 pm »
If you go all the way down to Dinas Mawddwy or Mallwyd there'd be no need for infos - proper proof of passage options are available at Dinas, Vyrnwy and Llanuwchllyn.

Funnily enough I was thinking about this only the other day, but just Llanuwchllyn-Dinas-Vyrnwy-Llanuwchllyn.

I once rode one of Graham Mills rides which went down the steep side to Dinas. To make things even more interesting the council had just been and top-dressed it a couple of days beforehand so it was still covered in loose gravel. We had an easier time of it on the tandem with 26x1.5" tires and the drag brake than skinny tyred solos. Definite smell of overheating brake blocks by the bottom though. At least these days the gate that used to be across the road at the bottom has gone...

whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2017, 06:09:41 am »
If you go all the way down to Dinas Mawddwy or Mallwyd there'd be no need for infos - proper proof of passage options are available at Dinas, Vyrnwy and Llanuwchllyn.

Funnily enough I was thinking about this only the other day, but just Llanuwchllyn-Dinas-Vyrnwy-Llanuwchllyn.

I once rode one of Graham Mills rides which went down the steep side to Dinas. To make things even more interesting the council had just been and top-dressed it a couple of days beforehand so it was still covered in loose gravel. We had an easier time of it on the tandem with 26x1.5" tires and the drag brake than skinny tyred solos. Definite smell of overheating brake blocks by the bottom though. At least these days the gate that used to be across the road at the bottom has gone...

Thanks John, they recently resurfaced the Hirnant, same thing, deep pools of gravel everywhere towards the top.

I thought about going all the way to Dinas, just concerned whether another proof of passage would cut too much into the available time. As far as I know there is only a cafe and a pub in Dinas and at busy times one can easily "waste" half an hour.


Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2017, 10:14:19 am »

I once rode one of Graham Mills rides which went down the steep side to Dinas. To make things even more interesting the council had just been and top-dressed it a couple of days beforehand so it was still covered in loose gravel. We had an easier time of it on the tandem with 26x1.5" tires and the drag brake than skinny tyred solos. Definite smell of overheating brake blocks by the bottom though. At least these days the gate that used to be across the road at the bottom has gone...

I remember that ride as well ; that descent was horrendous. Trying to avoid the deep gravel by staying in the narrow track left by the cars was 'interesting'. I had to stop halfway down just to rest my arms from gripping the brakes so tightly. Mind you, once down the rest of the ride was very nice. I think it was one of the routes offered at the CTC Birthday Rides in 2005.     

whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2017, 10:26:07 am »
The road is now fine, great quality surface, for a mountain road... no gravel, no holes, no grass growing in the middle  :)

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2017, 11:43:30 am »
This is just the sort of ride that I'm sure Graham Mills would have loved to set up.

whosatthewheel

Re: Cingles du Bwlch-Y-Groes
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2017, 11:47:28 am »
This is just the sort of ride that I'm sure Graham Mills would have loved to set up.

 :)