Author Topic: 50% rule  (Read 4461 times)

50% rule
« on: August 14, 2017, 09:57:40 pm »
I have just looked at my results page........got 29 points..but it says that only 10 points count under 50% rule.

Have looked at aukweb site but can't find any references to it.

anyone help ?

thanks in advance

dave
We're supposed to be feeding them not fatting them........quote from chef on LEL

Re: 50% rule
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2017, 10:03:21 pm »
It only affects the Points Championship - 50% of points must be in calendar events. So points garnered in calendar events x 2 = your points total for the purposes of the Points Championship. It doesn't affect any other awards.

Sorry to break it to you, but I don't think you're in the running :)

Brakeless

  • Brakeless
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2017, 10:04:30 pm »

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2017, 10:05:37 pm »
Really only applies if you are in contention for one of the annual distance awards.
For the AUK annual distance awards, you need to do at least 50% of them on cal events.

The reason for this was some historical accusations of cheating.
One year, there was some contention for the winner of the award, and there were accusations that someone had been spotted on a train, or something.
It's easier to cheat on a train on a Perm or DIY when you are by yourself.
It's less easy on a cal event with loads of others.
So this rule was brought in.

Some people consider it to be a bit of a knee-jerk, and over heavy-handed on the basis of the events that precipitated it.  I take no view, it doesn't apply to me because I'm not in that league.


Brakeless

  • Brakeless
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2017, 10:08:26 pm »
I think the rule was also bought in so that the points leaders 'could be amongst us' as well and not just anonymous Audaxers doing daily 200 DIYs without ever getting involved with calender events. I think it's a good rule.

Re: 50% rule
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2017, 10:15:38 pm »
disappointed to find that my measly 29 points put me out of contension :o :facepalm:

thanks for the rapid explanations

cheers

dave
We're supposed to be feeding them not fatting them........quote from chef on LEL

Re: 50% rule
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 10:38:52 pm »
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

Re: 50% rule
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 11:03:38 pm »
Thanks for that Ivan.

There might just be a little less wall space somewhere in the house when I print that off and put it in a frame.  :thumbsup:

Re: 50% rule
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2017, 11:08:56 am »
I found my spoke card version of that only yesterday (it was given to me and a few other fixed riders at the start of the Bryan Chapman in 2009).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mmmmartin

  • BPB 1/1: PBP 0/1
    • FNRttC
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2017, 04:03:20 pm »
my measly 29 points put me out of contension
One year I was very proud to be able to say I had the same number of points at Teethgrinder. He had 81. I had 18. Well, the numbers were the same - just in a different order.........
Besides, it wouldn't be audacious if success were guaranteed.

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2017, 04:17:37 pm »
Don't worry, you'll get over it.

3peaker

  • RRTY Mad 31 up
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2017, 01:28:10 am »
50% rule saw me take the Vets Trophy in 2009, although Chair Chris Crosland had amassed more points. I was also working towards the Trike Record, which I gained with 103 points, so was watching my rides matched the Rule. I chased all over Southern England to find Events.
SteveP

Promoting : Cheltenham Flyer 200, Cider with Rosie 150, Character Coln 100 21 Mar 20. (Suspended 16 Mar 20 on AUK advice)

Re: 50% rule
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2017, 02:33:12 pm »
Really only applies if you are in contention for one of the annual distance awards.
For the AUK annual distance awards, you need to do at least 50% of them on cal events.

The reason for this was some historical accusations of cheating.
One year, there was some contention for the winner of the award, and there were accusations that someone had been spotted on a train, or something.
It's easier to cheat on a train on a Perm or DIY when you are by yourself.
It's less easy on a cal event with loads of others.
So this rule was brought in.

Some people consider it to be a bit of a knee-jerk, and over heavy-handed on the basis of the events that precipitated it.  I take no view, it doesn't apply to me because I'm not in that league.



Were Mandatory by GPS DIYs considered too? I'd have thought they'd be nigh on impossible to fake or at least so time consuming as to not make it worth it.

Although this I can understand...

I think the rule was also bought in so that the points leaders 'could be amongst us' as well and not just anonymous Audaxers doing daily 200 DIYs without ever getting involved with calender events. I think it's a good rule.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2017, 02:50:58 pm »
DIY or DIY by GPS or mandatory route DIY perms did not exist when the 50% rule was created. AUK has been around for over 40 years now, so there is some history leading to the current situation (for just about everything).
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: 50% rule
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2017, 03:47:21 pm »
Were Mandatory by GPS DIYs considered too? I'd have thought they'd be nigh on impossible to fake or at least so time consuming as to not make it worth it.

Not really. I've got 200+ points worth of GPS tracklogs from old DIYs and old calendar/perm rides that the DIYxGPS system has never seen. Strava is filled with many many more examples should I need them. Manipulating the timestamps is trivial.

Faking something from scratch (e.g. from GPS route without timestamps to convincing fake) is several orders of magnitude harder.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2017, 06:33:28 pm »
DIY or DIY by GPS or mandatory route DIY perms did not exist when the 50% rule was created.

Furthermore, at that time there was a rule that only one instance of a Permanent could be ridden (counted) in one season.  You couldn't even ride once in each direction.  So it was relatively unusual then, for anyone to amass anything like 50% of their points in Perms.
I was present at the AGM when the 50% rule was voted in - and it was, completely, a collective knee-jerk response to the shocking revelation that someone had been spotted using train-assist while riding Perms.  A couple of rabble-rousing impassioned speeches from the floor by respected elder auks was all it took.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: 50% rule
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2017, 08:24:53 pm »
Personally, I'm ok with the 50% rule even though I am currently affected by it. High distance points aren't an obtainable target for me at the moment but I'm somebody that's embraced the DIY mandatory by GPS simply due to it's accessibility. As someone who hasn't necessarily got the time or the finances to drive to lots of calendar events the mandatory method of logging rides is great. I ride the same route more than once too. How I would have coped in the old days of Audax I don't know.

I'm disturbed more by the fact that it's easy to fiddle with the gpx files. Maybe some additional proof should be obtained as a minimum. So, aswell as the gpx file, two receipts at the two furthest (or thereabouts) points of the ride. It's less work than having to obtain proof of passage at every extreme point or turn, that is possible to bisect, which the advisory routes take care of. But then that is where the gpx file comes into play. You can edit a gpx file without actually having gone out and ridden the ride so at least getting two forms of proof "beyond the world of computer" would prove you went out there and actually rode it.

The thing is it's like everything. Embrace new technologies but be aware that they can also pose additional problems and it's best to try and anticipate and respond to them without forgetting the primary motive is to get as many people as possible out there on their bikes....not e-bikes presumably (dope!)

Then perhaps I could be complicating an otherwise great facility. I'd just hate to see it get compromised and the thought of somebody catching a train, presumably to each control point, ermmm why? It's only audax  ;D

Just goes to show it's not only big cash prizes that encourage people to cheat.

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2017, 08:35:02 pm »
Baldy,
Were Mandatory by GPS DIYs considered too? I'd have thought they'd be nigh on impossible to fake or at least so time consuming as to not make it worth it.

Not really. I've got 200+ points worth of GPS tracklogs from old DIYs and old calendar/perm rides that the DIYxGPS system has never seen. Strava is filled with many many more examples should I need them. Manipulating the timestamps is trivial.

Faking something from scratch (e.g. from GPS route without timestamps to convincing fake) is several orders of magnitude harder.

I raised this a couple of years ago and had someone put a fake one through the machine for a test, it didn't go down too well. Maybe times have changed.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2017, 08:36:50 pm »
Whatever the origins of the 50% rule, it is rather irrelevant from a 'stopping cheating' point of view.

What it does do is encourage 'high milers to participate in calendar events, and that strikes me as a good thing.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2017, 08:41:58 pm »
Personally, I'm ok with the 50% rule even though I am currently affected by it. High distance points aren't an obtainable target for me at the moment but I'm somebody that's embraced the DIY mandatory by GPS simply due to it's accessibility. As someone who hasn't necessarily got the time or the finances to drive to lots of calendar events the mandatory method of logging rides is great. I ride the same route more than once too. How I would have coped in the old days of Audax I don't know.

Then you are not affected by it.
Continue as you are, with your DIYxGPS.
You still get all your points, it's just they don't all count towards the prize for the most points.

Quote
I'm disturbed more by the fact that it's easy to fiddle with the gpx files.

I don't think so.  It's not as easy as you might think to produce fake GPX files that can pass muster.
There are all kinds of checks that can be made.


Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2017, 08:49:07 pm »

I'm disturbed more by the fact that it's easy to fiddle with the gpx files.

I don't think so.  It's not as easy as you might think to produce fake GPX files that can pass muster.
There are all kinds of checks that can be made.

There was a programme a while ago going round which would produce a file that passed the test. Of course I'm not letting on which one, but it took 5 minutes to produce a convincing fake.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2017, 09:08:44 pm »
Then perhaps I could be complicating an otherwise great facility. I'd just hate to see it get compromised and the thought of somebody catching a train, presumably to each control point, ermmm why? It's only audax  ;D

Some folk find it easy to convince themselves that cutting the corner off a route or leapfrogging a chunk in the middle is justified by e.g. a mechanical problem or sickness and that their ride still 'deserves' validation. It isn't necessarily a case of avoiding every kilometre of a route.

I think that controlling every possibility of cheating is not practical or desirable (it leads to distorted route choices). It would be preferable to have the 'big stick' of refusing to validate any future brevets ridden by that person. Some other countries take that approach.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Aunt Maud

  • Le Flâneur.
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2017, 09:12:36 pm »
It does seem weird why someone would bother to enter a 300 and only want to ride 250, or enter a hilly and ride the valleys instead.

Re: 50% rule
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2017, 09:23:40 pm »
I
Then perhaps I could be complicating an otherwise great facility. I'd just hate to see it get compromised and the thought of somebody catching a train, presumably to each control point, ermmm why? It's only audax  ;D

Some folk find it easy to convince themselves that cutting the corner off a route or leapfrogging a chunk in the middle is justified by e.g. a mechanical problem or sickness and that their ride still 'deserves' validation. It isn't necessarily a case of avoiding every kilometre of a route.

I think that controlling every possibility of cheating is not practical or desirable (it leads to distorted route choices). It would be preferable to have the 'big stick' of refusing to validate any future brevets ridden by that person. Some other countries take that approach.

Yep it could come across as being draconian. I think of the times when I've been let of having missed an answer to a question on the brevet card and that could easily be misconstrued as me having cut a corner. A lot of it is based on trust I'd imagine most audaxers are trustworthy.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: 50% rule
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2017, 10:23:13 pm »
Unless all Audax events become mandatory route with GPX validation, then the possibilities for cheating are always there.

But for most people, we don't really care.
Someone else cheating does not invalidate my ride, although it may devalue it somewhat.
The only people who care are those few in contention for awards.

So my general position is that we probably should not make it more onerous on everyone in order to satisfy the few.

I'm not sure the 50% rule actually works.
The basis of it is that on a cal event, you are 'with other people' who can validate your ride.
I don't think that's actually true.
Typically on a longer ride, we set off in a big group, we thin out, and then group / split / re-group in different groups along the way.
Every rider who temporarily teams up with another will assume they have ridden the distance.
Plenty times, they will ride for a few hours and not even get their name.
I often see people for a while, and never see them again.

There is no one person who can say 'yes, he rode the whole distance'.
Would the org put out an e-mail to all entrants asking "Did some dude in an Audax Ecosse top ride with any of you, and where?"