Author Topic: Weight Loss using Fasting  (Read 6479 times)

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Weight Loss using Fasting
« on: September 07, 2017, 01:53:46 pm »
I thought I'd start this as a separate thread so those who are genuinely interested can post their views/hints/tips/links ..etc

Firstly a disclaimer: I'm in no way medically qualified to recommend any form of diet and you should consult your GP..etc..etc.  You get the picture.

My experience of reduced-calorie dieting (Weight-watcher, Slimming World and other such regimes) is like 99% of everyone else's, 6 months of success followed by ending up where I started after a year....repeat cycle for 20 years. 

I first became interested in Fasting after watching Micheal Moseley's BBC documentary where he used it to completely cure himself of Type-2 diabetes (he was in the early onset stages, even though he wasn't overweight).  It was actually the beneficial side-effects that interested me more than weight-loss, obviously preventing diabetes is a huge benefit but also the Atophagy aspect (where fasting triggers a "clearout" of damaged/mutated proteins), enhanced brain function, growth hormone release..and so on.

Recently I discovered Dr Jason Fung videos.  Jason Fung treats the morbidly Obese in his clinic, dealing with Type-2 diabetes sufferers as it relates to the Obese.

His research into the way Insulin affects diabetes AND fat regulation was eye-opening.

So, I'm not going to preach, I'm not qualified.  Here are some links to videos, watch them, don't watch them, whatever.  Your choice.  I find the reasoning and research equally compelling. He explains why continual calorie reduction is almost certainly doomed to failure, with medical research to show why.  He explains why Fasting is not doomed to failure in the same way. 

The only observation I will make is that I get starving hungry, cold and lethargic on reduced calorie diets (and end up where I started a year later).  I am none of these things when Fasting (actually the opposite, I feel alert, satiated and "normal", even after 3 days without any food (my current maximum)).

I should also point out that I am only 8 weeks into a Fasting regime/lifestyle.

Video 1 - A Summary by Jason Fung >>>>  https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w  <<<<

Video 2 - A discussion with Jason Fung >>>> https://youtu.be/v9Aw0P7GjHE <<<<

Since dieting is a world full of "Old Wives' Tales" (OWTs) about "Starvation mode", Muscle loss, "Breakfast is the most vital meal" (most put about by food companies) I would recommend watching the videos fully before commenting with any more OWTs because the videos seems to be based purely in Science.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2017, 02:11:07 pm »
I thought I'd start this as a separate thread so those who are genuinely interested can post their views/hints/tips/links ..etc

Firstly a disclaimer: I'm in no way medically qualified to recommend any form of diet and you should consult your GP..etc..etc.  You get the picture.

My experience of reduced-calorie dieting (Weight-watcher, Slimming World and other such regimes) is like 99% of everyone else's, 6 months of success followed by ending up where I started after a year....repeat cycle for 20 years. 

I first became interested in Fasting after watching Micheal Moseley's BBC documentary where he used it to completely cure himself of Type-2 diabetes (he was in the early onset stages, even though he wasn't overweight).  It was actually the beneficial side-effects that interested me more than weight-loss, obviously preventing diabetes is a huge benefit but also the Atophagy aspect (where fasting triggers a "clearout" of damaged/mutated proteins), enhanced brain function, growth hormone release..and so on.

Recently I discovered Dr Jason Fung videos.  Jason Fung treats the morbidly Obese in his clinic, dealing with Type-2 diabetes sufferers as it relates to the Obese.

His research into the way Insulin affects diabetes AND fat regulation was eye-opening.

So, I'm not going to preach, I'm not qualified.  Here are some links to videos, watch them, don't watch them, whatever.  Your choice.  I find the reasoning and research equally compelling. He explains why continual calorie reduction is almost certainly doomed to failure, with medical research to show why.  He explains why Fasting is not doomed to failure in the same way. 

The only observation I will make is that I get starving hungry, cold and lethargic on reduced calorie diets (and end up where I started a year later).  I am none of these things when Fasting (actually the opposite, I feel alert, satiated and "normal", even after 3 days without any food (my current maximum)).

I should also point out that I am only 8 weeks into a Fasting regime/lifestyle.

Video 1 - A Summary by Jason Fung >>>>  https://youtu.be/ETkwZIi3R7w  <<<<

Video 2 - A discussion with Jason Fung >>>> https://youtu.be/v9Aw0P7GjHE <<<<

I had a long reply done in other thread and hit post when not logged in....

I haven't the time or heart to retype it all.

I watched most of video, it's basically Taubes rehashed in terms of insulin at it's role in body fat loss/gain. Insulin is a bit player, body fat is regulated primarily by leptin, hypothalamus and ghrelin and thyroid. Insulin is a bit player

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html

You want to understand insulin, spend a few hours on that site or the bio chemistry book of choice.

Unless there are RCCT showing that fasting can long term reset leptin levels/leptin reistance I doubt very much that it will work long term. In obese/overweight people the probability is that the system regulating bodyfat is set too high (St Vincents Hospital and Harvard are doing some research on immune function impairment also), unless fasting resets that can't see how it is a cure.

A charismatic guy giving presentations doesn't cut it as evidence.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2017, 02:19:29 pm »
Well, I'll be giving it a go starting next week hopefully.

Will start off with Tuesday 11pm to Thursday lunchtime in the first week and will add Thursday 11pm to Saturday 10.30am from the week after that.

(Colour me risk averse but I don't want to try a second ever ~36h fast ending just a few hours before a 2 mile open water swim.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2017, 03:34:45 pm »
I've done fasting in the past, for 'health'. It was during a 'experimental' period in my life, ok?

You can get some wicked headaches when you fast for more than 3days.

Wind the calendar forward a few decades and I've had to give a few foods due to intolerances (wheat, and then caffeine). I still really miss coffee.

My experience is that if you have had to give up a whole food group it changes attitude to food. For one thing, I've become more accustomed to simply going hungry. It makes it easier to just not overeat.

I was told by a young bloke that the Japanese (his granddad was Japanese) have a belief in stopping eating while you are still hungry (he said his granddad was always nagging him to not stuff himself).

It's like a switch in the head; being hungry is ok.

My stepson has it to the opposite extreme; he would happily just remain hungry rather than go to the effort of making himself a sandwich. He is rake-thin and we have to nag him to eat.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2017, 04:44:05 pm »
Once I'm down to my target weight I'll ease back from multi-day fasting and into 18 hours fasting (Early evening dinner followed by a delayed "breakfast" closer to a normal lunchtime).

I find the 18 hours regime extremely manageable and it seems you get many of the same benefits as you do from longer term fasting.

Body-weight management really needs to be something you can incorporate, long-term, into your lifestyle rather than brief, repeating, interludes in your overeating behaviour.

So far so good.  I'll report back, honestly, in a few months to let you know how I got on.

Laters.

FYI:
JULY 17 2017 - 92.5Kg (14st 8lb)
SEPT 08 2017 - 84.8Kg (13st 5lb)

The lowest weight I have been since 1997 is 12st 11lb (81.2Kg) on the start line of PBP2015 (actually I was probably even lighter by the end but I neglected to weigh myself during the ensuing 2 year feeding frenzy)
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2017, 03:21:13 pm »
Well, I'll be giving it a go starting next week hopefully.

Will start off with Tuesday 11pm to Thursday lunchtime in the first week and will add Thursday 11pm to Saturday 10.30am from the week after that.

Didn't start it last week so it rolls over to this week. A couple of pints in the pub tonight after 5-a-side and then nothing until Thursday lunch.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 03:29:20 pm »
Good luck GB.

It can be a bit miserable for a week or so, until your body/cells become adapted to Ketosis (That state when your stored carbs/glycogen are depleted and fat-burning takes over).

I maintain that Audax riders are likely to be more adapted to Ketosis than "normal people" and that it doesn't take as long for them to become efficient at it (fewer headaches, less hunger..etc)
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2017, 10:04:05 am »
am just starting a 'watered down' version of this, trying the 18:6 fasting pattern  -  basically just skipping breakfast, and even if it just reduces calories then I'm hoping it'll work.   Coffee & water are allowed, thankfully.   

Am on day 3 and it's been surprisingly easy.   I train on the river or rowing machine most evenings and didn't fancy trying to coordinate longer fasts with fairly intense exercise.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2017, 08:50:15 am »
 I wish I can do this. my wife cooks real good food. who am I to resist?

I'm just not really disciplined I guess.  :-[

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 08:57:25 am »
basically just skipping breakfast

I've skipped breakfast for the vast majority of the last 10 years. My waistline is evidence that you soon work out how to make up for it at other meals.

Anyway, I'm approaching 34h of fasting and I've found it pretty easy. Definitely looking forward to my lunch (which will be bang on 12pm, I'll be queueing outside the canteen at work!)

Only slightly tricky bits were preparing food for others (afternoon snack, tea and breakfast for my daughter). Was quite tempting to butter another slice of bread to stuff in my gob, but I knew that one would just lead to another. My brain is generally ok with this though from many years working in catering and preparing food for hundreds of others a night and not getting to eat any of it (at the time).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2017, 10:52:57 am »
basically just skipping breakfast

I've skipped breakfast for the vast majority of the last 10 years. My waistline is evidence that you soon work out how to make up for it at other meals.

Anyway, I'm approaching 34h of fasting and I've found it pretty easy. Definitely looking forward to my lunch (which will be bang on 12pm, I'll be queueing outside the canteen at work!)

Only slightly tricky bits were preparing food for others (afternoon snack, tea and breakfast for my daughter). Was quite tempting to butter another slice of bread to stuff in my gob, but I knew that one would just lead to another. My brain is generally ok with this though from many years working in catering and preparing food for hundreds of others a night and not getting to eat any of it (at the time).

It's also tough if your Wife brings a bottle of Rioja home.  So tough in fact that I gave in to temptation last night.  Best thing to do is enjoy it and not feel guilty.   

Things will even out over time, there's no end date on this, it's not a diet, I don't have a target weight.  It needs to be a sustainable, 'for life' thing.
Targets make it a Pass or Fail exercise.  I'm currently on a Wattbike power:weight improvement class so I may be offsetting fat loss with muscle gain.

Above all else though, what I like about Fasting is the no-brainer aspect to it. 
I can't stress enough how much time you seem to get back in your day when there's no food-related activities going on.  It's probably saving us quite a bit of money as well.  I didn't open the fridge once all day yesterday.

Worth noting that I really struggled the one time I went to Wattbike class in a Fasted state.  It burns about 1,000kcals/hr and I guess I can't metabolise fat at that rate. 
I now prep for it with a bit of carb loading the previous evening and at breakfast.
Social cycling is fine. I'm estimating that requires about 300-400kcals an hour.

My friends seem horrified when they learn I go cycling after not eating for a day or two, considering it somehow life-threatening. 
I think that shows how our relationship with, and understanding of, food has changed over the last 60 years or so.

Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2017, 11:18:58 am »
Worth noting that I really struggled the one time I went to Wattbike class in a Fasted state.

I'm going to avoid intense exercise near the end of a fast. Near the beginning of a fast it is no different to what I do already (e.g. 11km run commute in to work on a Friday morning on an empty stomach as last calorific intake was 11pm in the pub on a Thursday). The difference is that instead of EATING ALL THE THINGS at lunch on Friday I'll keep the fast going until Saturday morning with only a medium/high 30 minute cycle commute on Friday evening. I'll also have ~350kcal (chocolate milk) shortly after the Friday morning run to help ward off the sniffles.

(42 minutes until work canteen starts serving lunch...)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Blazer

  • One too many mornings and a thousand miles behind
Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2017, 11:55:33 am »
Thanks for the thread although I'll confess I've not watched the videos (yet).

I've fasted from time to time in the past and I think it is interesting how it can change or influence your relationship to food / meal times.  I find fasting positively challenges the "it's lunchtime, I must be hungry" treadmill.

Without wanting to take the thread off topic I think one of the keys is being mindful of fasting and not treating it as purely skipping meals.  It's about fasting in that moment but then being mindful not to over consume whenever I break fast.

For me, fasting also needs to be about the quality of food I consume when I break fast.  I don't necessarily mean cost-wise but more how is the food providing what my body needs rather than just calories.

In terms of exercise on little food, when training I have quite often run in excess of 2 hrs on little more than a breakfast of a handful of raisins.  Put gels in front of me on an organised run though and I consume at every stop.

All easier said than done of course.

Keep up the good work all,


Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2017, 10:40:47 am »
I know you should only look at weight trends over 2-3 weeks minimum and it's only been two days but blimey.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2017, 12:23:25 pm »
I know you should only look at weight trends over 2-3 weeks minimum and it's only been two days but blimey.

You'll shed fluids like crazy initially ("water follows the sugar") but I'm 10 weeks in today and I'm 10Kg down.  1Kg a week is precisely what is predicted given the regime I'm on. 
1Kg/2.2lbs of fat is about 7500kcals and that's pretty much the same as the deficit I'm creating (and that my fat reserves are fuelling).

I'm perfectly happy with 0.5-1Kg per week averaged over a few weeks.  Expecting more than that requires some 'endurance' exercise (3-4 hour zone-2 rides) which I'm not really doing at the moment.

Hang in there GB.

FYI:
JULY 17 2017 - 92.5Kg (14st 8lb)
SEPT 08 2017 - 84.8Kg (13st 5lb)
SEPT 22 2017 - 82.6Kg (13st 0lb)

Not hungry.  30 mile ride last night in the cold....felt fast and powerful.


Note - I find this fella's videos very informative and motivational - >>> Dr Eric Berg <<<
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2017, 12:46:47 pm »
You'll shed fluids like crazy initially ("water follows the sugar")

Indeed, simple physics says the weight I've "lost" can't all be fat so a significant proportion of it has to be transients.

Along with water, people are fairly full of shit [anywhere between 2.5kg and 15kg] and fasting for ~36h will mean that stuff that comes out isn't being replaced, but I was still surprised at the difference in weight (with what I thought were similar hydration levels) in the space of a few days.

Anyway, Wednesday morning is weigh day, no point getting excited before I've seen another 4 or 5 of them.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2017, 03:55:51 pm »
I don't think people usually carry 15 kg faecal matter. I believe adult output is around ¼kg per day so few will have more than 2kg on board.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2017, 04:04:34 pm »
It was a range I'd found by a quick google. A bit more googling suggests for the vast majority of people it will be between 2kg and 5kg.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2017, 04:44:14 pm »
In Iran, it was around 340g/day and a 12 hour transit time, which implies  <1kg storage.

I really don't think folk who eat sensible amounts of fibre store HUGE amounts of stuff.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2017, 09:58:31 pm »
In Iran, it was around 340g/day and a 12 hour transit time, which implies  <1kg storage.

I really don't think folk who eat sensible amounts of fibre store HUGE amounts of stuff.

Tend to agree. I know if I eat too much one day for some reason it usually is gone by the second day following. Transit time usually greater than 12 and less than 30 hours (unless real ale involved of course)

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2017, 04:42:47 pm »
Just to clear up a question on the Weight Loss thread

Who should NOT Fast?
"Children: Most children, up to the age of 18, don’t need to fast. Although most children shouldn’t eat as frequently as they do, they need not engage in prolonged bouts of fasting. Children are growing and need sound nutrition to do so.
The exception to this rule is overweight children. The first step in reversing childhood obesity shouldn’t be fasting, but instead restructuring their diet. Get the child eating healthily first, removing all sugar and junk food.
After a child is eating healthily, you’ll likely find it unnecessary to also have him or her fast. But, as always, if you’re under the age of 18 or have a child who you believe might benefit from fasting, consult with your doctor first.

Also Pregnant women should not fast for the same reason as developing children.

People with medical issues, unless approved by and recommended by their GP.
"


For my part I intend to keep fasting after I (hopefully) achieve a weight in the healthy weight range.  That's because the benefits of fasting seem to go beyond weight loss. 

Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2017, 02:57:57 pm »
Reasonably decent 48 hour fast this week (Sunday evening to Tuesday evening). I probably could have carried on longer, but I was a bit plagued with feeling cold - hunger wasn't the problem, rather more like Bilbo's "thin" ("Like butter spread over too much bread").

I'm also playing around with some HIIT weight training (Doug McGuff - Body by Science) and I felt a wee bit light-headed a couple of times during today's workout; I think I need to allow an additional feed day between the end of a fast, and weights day to allow glycogen to build back up - especially as I'm also pretty low carb at the moment, so available glucose is pretty low, and I wasn't exactly inactive during my fast as I did 8km of hill walking each morning Monday and Tuesday, before work.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2017, 08:44:09 pm »
I finally got around to watching those Jason Fung videos. Interesting. What regime are you using, Lee, and where does one find out about different ways of going about it - as in, best times to start etc.? I might try it to see how it goes.

Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2017, 09:32:06 pm »
First 48 hours fast from Thursday evening until Saturday evening. Mixed in with Pilates watt bike and 2 hours commuting.

No problems except perhaps more muscle pain than expected.

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Weight Loss using Fasting
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2017, 08:39:08 am »
I finally got around to watching those Jason Fung videos. Interesting. What regime are you using, Lee, and where does one find out about different ways of going about it - as in, best times to start etc.? I might try it to see how it goes.

Youtube is my only resource tbh.  I like the ones by Dr Eric berg as well - https://www.youtube.com/user/drericberg123/videos

As for my regime I use a combination of 100% fasted days, just water, black coffee and herb tea, combined with eating as late as I can when I'm not fasting.

Typically I've settled into 100% on Monday then and evening meal on Tuesday (I have a heavy Wattbike session 06:30 on Wednesday).  I'll eat a huge omelette on Wednesday breakfast, post Wattbike, then I'll have nothing until a beer or two on my Thursday evening club/pub ride..  I tend to skip breakfast totally now.

It's no problem at all now.  Only eating causes me an issue because it makes me feel so hungry afterwards.  Totally fasting from Sunday bedtime to Tuesday Dinnertime completely offsets any fun you had over the weekend.

BTW.  My Wattbike power increased (i did a 20 minute FTP test a week ago) and my weight is down.  I should be below 13st tomorrow.  I was 14st 8lb in July, with less power.

My own non-scientific. self-based, research tells me that I gained muscle and/or efficiency whilst losing body mass.  I'm wearing smaller sized clothes, I feel better, I look better and life feels generally better. What's not to like? 

I think it's about choosing a regime that fits your life.  It's a "for life" thing, not a diet.  Diets have a target, an end-point.  That's why I've failed for 20 years.  When I reached my target I reverted to my old ways.  My plan is to make this regime my new "old ways".

If fasting for multiple days is too tough then just try confining your calories to a short period, say 1pm - 5pm.  That gives your body time to burn fat for 20 hours.

When I see cakes now I just see them as something that will completely shut down my body's ability to burn fat (lose weight) for the next few hours. 
That thought alone pretty much stopped my snacking lifestyle.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.