Author Topic: HI VIZ  (Read 4473 times)

HI VIZ
« on: September 11, 2017, 12:38:46 pm »
Apologies if this belongs elsewhere but...

I've been looking for a hi viz tabard that has something suitably subtle on the back reminding approaching drivers that I'd appreciate it if they gave me a bit of room.

I don't like the POLITE stuff and most of the nice looking equestrian stuff looks like it would be either a wind drag or too hot and sweaty over a 200 km ride

So, has anyone seen anything?  Or anyone aware of a supplier who does nice tabards that can be customised with a text like "THANKS FOR GIVING ME SPACE"

Thoughts?

Liam

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2017, 01:22:01 pm »
Apologies if this belongs elsewhere but...

I've been looking for a hi viz tabard that has something suitably subtle on the back reminding approaching drivers that I'd appreciate it if they gave me a bit of room.

I don't like the POLITE stuff and most of the nice looking equestrian stuff looks like it would be either a wind drag or too hot and sweaty over a 200 km ride

So, has anyone seen anything?  Or anyone aware of a supplier who does nice tabards that can be customised with a text like "THANKS FOR GIVING ME SPACE"

Thoughts?

Liam

Being purely objective.

High viz jackets already have "legal" standards attached to them so they're giving an indication to others that the wearer is there. Putting something that can only be recognised  at a much closer distance might not be effective. To the point almost that it detracts from the high viz primary objective.

where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Kim

  • An appetite for the epic, but no real stamina
Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2017, 01:34:09 pm »
To the point almost that it detracts from the high viz primary objective.

I think you need to define the primary objective.  Mostly it's designed to make you visible in headlights from a long way off.  This makes sense if you're working on a railway, as it gives the train driver more time to slow down.  The evidence that this actually provides a safety benefit for cyclists is somewhat lacking, and I suspect the optical benefit is negligible if you've already got decent lights.

A tabard that does a momentarily[1] convincing impression of a police officer (with a view to making motorists suddenly give a fuck about other road users), on the other hand, is hi-vis only because that's what police officers wear - being reflective at a distance isn't part of its principle of operation.

I think the research - such as it is - suggests that it's being taken for a police officer that's important.  Passive-aggressive slogans like "THANKS FOR GIVING ME SPACE" aren't likely to work any better than standard optical-visibility hi-vis.

The other problem is that while close passes are scary, most cyclists are hit from the front/side at junctions.  Any text on your back isn't going to help there.  If you actually want a safety benefit you'd be better off trying to cultivate the attention-increasing WTF-factor with a gorilla suit or recumbent bicycle or something.


[1] To avoid falling foul of the law against impersonating a police officer.
Watching the TV without subtitles is like riding up a hill without using the gears :)

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2017, 01:35:44 pm »
I assume you mean don't write in 12 point...or make it War and Peace

...which means you'd want to keep the word count down as much as possible. 

My challenge is that people know I'm there, but some people think I'd like it if they got really close.  I don't want to sound narky and cyclyarsy I just want them to get a polite and friendly reminder to swing wide. 


Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2017, 01:37:49 pm »

The other problem is that while close passes are scary


Which is the point of the post

Kim

  • An appetite for the epic, but no real stamina
Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2017, 01:38:05 pm »
My challenge is that people know I'm there, but some people think I'd like it if they got really close.  I don't want to sound narky and cyclyarsy I just want them to get a polite and friendly reminder to swing wide.

People who don't give a fuck aren't suddenly going to give a fuck because your jacket's being polite.

Maybe if it said "BABY ON BOARD" it might help.
Watching the TV without subtitles is like riding up a hill without using the gears :)

Kim

  • An appetite for the epic, but no real stamina
Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2017, 01:38:34 pm »

The other problem is that while close passes are scary


Which is the point of the post

If you really want to avoid close passes, ride a tricycle.  That actually works.
Watching the TV without subtitles is like riding up a hill without using the gears :)

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2017, 01:41:45 pm »
Get one with a big camera picture on the back which might suggest motorist is being filmed.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2017, 01:42:06 pm »
"OFF DUTY"?
Between the Disney abattoir and the chemical refinery

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2017, 01:53:31 pm »
Kim, would that be a regular or hi-viz gorilla suit?
I am often asked, what does YOAV stand for? It stands for Yoav On A Velo

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2017, 01:57:23 pm »
The risk is that all the individual solutions to visibility simply end up causing visual confusion.

Within certain parameters, the best way I have found of reducing close passes is by riding further out.

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2017, 02:02:58 pm »
Gotta agree with IanH. If I think there's a risk of enabling or tempting a close pass, I take the primary position and force the issue.

99.99% of the time people get it and wait nicely. Sometimes you get the odd beep, but so what?

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2017, 02:08:48 pm »
A tabard that does a momentarily[1] convincing impression of a police officer (with a view to making motorists suddenly give a fuck about other road users), on the other hand, is hi-vis only because that's what police officers wear - being reflective at a distance isn't part of its principle of operation.

I think the research - such as it is - suggests that it's being taken for a police officer that's important. 
[...]
If you actually want a safety benefit you'd be better off trying to cultivate the attention-increasing WTF-factor with a gorilla suit or recumbent bicycle or something.

Difference between visibility and conspicuity, or something.

Within certain parameters, the best way I have found of reducing close passes is by riding further out.

Indeed. My (London) rule of thumb has always been that you'll get given about 1.5x as much room as you give the kerb - ride six inches out and you'll be brushed past with a whole nine inches to spare, while a more reasonable four foot gap isn't enough to induce apoplexy in car drivers but still leads to six feet of space as they pass (well, mostly).

Probably also worth reprising David Martin's Theory of BIG.

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2017, 02:13:51 pm »
I agree with the primary position, and riding two abreast as a group (as endorsed by Chris Boardman and British Cycling). I was getting close passes on the roads with nothing coming towards us, which baffles me, unless the drivers don't realise how close they are, or they're just lazy steerers.
Bikes are for riding, not cleaning!

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2017, 02:25:39 pm »
The widest passes IME are at night. Riding Wiltshire lanes at 2 a.m. everyone goes right on to the other side of the road. I surmise this is probably because of the lack of traffic coupled with headlights showing up round corners long before actual vehicles do, leads drivers to "know" there is nothing oncoming. Perhaps there's also a WTF factor; as in, "WTF is he doing out on a bike at this time? Must be a right nutter!" Especially if it's not even a weekend...

How you translate that to daytime, I don't know. Possibly visibility/conspicuity is or can be a factor, as I also recall some of the closest passes coming when in tree shade on otherwise sunny roads.
Pleasure spreads out on the map and the knapsack is full of joy.

dim

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2017, 02:42:01 pm »
I believe in being 'seen' and I will be getting a Proviz jacket for winter, aswell as the Proviz ruchsack ....

I also have the 'Polite Think Bike Jacket.... I've had this jacket for 2 years but have only used it twice.... it is very effective

I also have a cygolite hotshot rear light

I commute 6 days a week and cycle approx 300km per week .... I hate the dark

and for those who say that hiviz in the day is ineffective ..... check this photo:




grahamparks

  • London N19
    • My Instagram
Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2017, 02:45:38 pm »
Bright lights that are on 24/7 are my solution, since it makes you look like a real vehicle or even a motorbike. Very easy to do if you have dynamo lights.

(As a driver I don't think flashing or deliberately blinding lights are a good idea, since they're harder to judge the direction and speed of. Also, many drivers associate flashing lights with joggers and slow-moving cyclists)

grahamparks

  • London N19
    • My Instagram
Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2017, 02:46:17 pm »
and for those who say that hiviz in the day is ineffective ..... check this photo:

Now stand those people up against green countryside foliage.

dim

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2017, 02:48:46 pm »
and for those who say that hiviz in the day is ineffective ..... check this photo:

Now stand those people up against green countryside foliage.

thats why hi viz orange is regarded as more effective for cycling in the countryside .... yellow for the city

Proviz now makes the jackets in various colours ....not cheap though:

https://www.provizsports.com/en-gb/cycling/cycling-jackets

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2017, 02:52:47 pm »
To the point almost that it detracts from the high viz primary objective.

I think you need to define the primary objective.  Mostly it's designed to make you visible in headlights from a long way off.  This makes sense if you're working on a railway, as it gives the train driver more time to slow down.  The evidence that this actually provides a safety benefit for cyclists is somewhat lacking, and I suspect the optical benefit is negligible if you've already got decent lights.

A tabard that does a momentarily[1] convincing impression of a police officer (with a view to making motorists suddenly give a fuck about other road users), on the other hand, is hi-vis only because that's what police officers wear - being reflective at a distance isn't part of its principle of operation.

I think the research - such as it is - suggests that it's being taken for a police officer that's important.  Passive-aggressive slogans like "THANKS FOR GIVING ME SPACE" aren't likely to work any better than standard optical-visibility hi-vis.

The other problem is that while close passes are scary, most cyclists are hit from the front/side at junctions.  Any text on your back isn't going to help there.  If you actually want a safety benefit you'd be better off trying to cultivate the attention-increasing WTF-factor with a gorilla suit or recumbent bicycle or something.


[1] To avoid falling foul of the law against impersonating a police officer.

Hi viz jackets can be spotted at distances of (say) a mile away. The reflective strips are very effective. At that distance i doubt you are going to be able to read anything, however ypu habe noticed a bright object.
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Karla

  • car(e) free
Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2017, 03:10:04 pm »
In Walker (he of women's wing fame) did a study with those POLITE jackets. They made not a jot of difference to passing distance, whereas an actual police jacket made a huge difference.  The lesson: people can see you perfectly well, it's whether they give a fuck that causes you problems
Latest tour journal: Bucharest to Berlin

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2017, 03:11:23 pm »
I think my original question was less about being seen and more about making sure that people didn't come too close.

In open countryside and Central London it's normally OK but out here on the edge of London in Herts/Bucks it can get a bit hairy, especially around rush hours even if one is riding in primary.  My thought was that, rather than cursing under my breath and wondering if the next nutter would have me off, I could add a message to my hi viz that reminded them not to come so close.

It makes sense to keep the message short and BIG but does anyone sell such a thing?

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2017, 03:12:28 pm »
In Walker (he of women's wing fame) did a study with those POLITE jackets. They made not a jot of difference to passing distance, whereas an actual police jacket made a huge difference.  The lesson: people can see you perfectly well, it's whether they give a fuck that causes you problems

Perhaps the issue is also partly about making the rider feel more confident?

Karla

  • car(e) free
Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2017, 03:18:48 pm »
What's the point in being more confident if neither the danger nor other people's behaviour have changed? Surely either your original (fearful) assessment of conditions was correct, in which case the jacket is a placebo that is inducing you to rash behaviour where you take unwarranted risks, or else conditions have always been acceptable, you don't need the jacket and the problem you need to fix is in your head's inaccurate perception of danger.
Latest tour journal: Bucharest to Berlin

Re: HI VIZ
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2017, 03:19:17 pm »
my logic suggests that it is not a good idea to have stuff written on the back for the drivers to read. firstly, there is not enough space to make it readable (only one big letter would be visible if it's printed on the lower half of the vest/gillet). secondly, if the driver tries to read what's written on your back he/she may drive in to you - similar phenomenon when people drive into roadside objects on deserted roads as they keep looking at them. imo, yacf jersey arrows on rear pockets are a good solution (for the uk) as it reminds a common road sign. another image that could work well is a big horizontal right arrow with "1.5m" printed on it.