Author Topic: What changes would you make to cycling law?  (Read 4465 times)

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2017, 11:07:39 pm »
If speed limits were imposed you would need a change in the law, and then some sort of MOT check to make sure said speedometer was correct – it ain't gonna happen, but I can see in the not too distant future everybody will have to have some sort of third party insurance.
The limits apply to mechanically propelled vehicles, not vehicles with a speedometer.
Quite. To reinforce that, the reason bikes don't have to obey speed limits is because the law says that motor vehicles (mechanically propelled vehicles) may not exceed designated speed limits. Bikes aren't motor vehicles. Of course, a good speedometer is useful in obeying such laws, but whether you have one isn't the point.
I agree with more enforcement of existing law, but I don't agree with removing the need to warn drivers of enforcement cameras.
The problems with warnings are that they are an implied acceptance of the view that speeding fines are a tax, and not something levied for law breaking, and that, by implication, they indicated where cameras are not located, and therefore where it is safe to break the law, to the detriment of others.

Ben T

  • Viable.
Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2017, 11:09:19 pm »
Without the aberrance that is central London, approximately no one cycles in the UK because, tbh, unless you're passionate about cycling it's a bit shit, somewhere between DIY dentistry and juggling your own poo. Sure, slap some ill-formed laws on cycling, and it'll be less than no one. One of the main attractions of cycling is that you can just get on an go.

What is being proposed that mean you won't be able to just get on and go?

You just won't be able to plough into somebody.

We have no idea what's being proposed yet as the consultation hasn't been published. We're told it will be in the interests of cyclist safety. I'm still convinced it will include the two H-words.

Sigh.  ::-) Sooner it's over and done with the sooner we can stop bloody fretting and flapping about it then ::-)
I'm definitely right over this.

ian

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Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2017, 09:32:57 am »
Without the aberrance that is central London, approximately no one cycles in the UK because, tbh, unless you're passionate about cycling it's a bit shit, somewhere between DIY dentistry and juggling your own poo. Sure, slap some ill-formed laws on cycling, and it'll be less than no one. One of the main attractions of cycling is that you can just get on an go.

What is being proposed that mean you won't be able to just get on and go?

You just won't be able to plough into somebody.

You can't 'plough into' anyone.

I've no idea what is being proposed. At best our current crop of politicians are incoherent. I suspect most of them still need help finding the loo.

Anyway, I doubt anything they 'think' up will make cycling a more attractive transport option. It might please a reactionary bunch of DM readers but then they hate everything including, I suspect, themselves.
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Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2017, 01:11:01 pm »
....The lighting regulations for cycles need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the century of the fruitbat.  I'd be in favour of something like the German or Dutch regs - let's mandate static dynamo/e-bike battery powered lighting with sensible beams at point of sale, unless the bike is designed for racing or off-road riding.  Make pedal reflectors optional, while we're at it.
That was one of things Chris Juden worked on (lastly on the red tape challenge):
http://westsurreyctc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PPR711-Cycle-regulations-review-final-report.pdf
So, already ready and waiting some legislating..... Abandoning the requirement for pedal reflectors an option in the final report options.
I don't think the UK will want to create its own complicated rules like German or Dutch  so until there is revamped ISO standard (currently being Germanified), I think the best will be minumum intensities written direct into law: Buying a Stvzo front lamp thencovers the front and a Stzvo rear lamp with (dutch voluntary standards) RKF 3 stars (or just a rear lamp with RKF 3 stars) covers the rear 4cd minimum.

Ben T

  • Viable.
Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2017, 02:57:02 pm »
Without the aberrance that is central London, approximately no one cycles in the UK because, tbh, unless you're passionate about cycling it's a bit shit, somewhere between DIY dentistry and juggling your own poo. Sure, slap some ill-formed laws on cycling, and it'll be less than no one. One of the main attractions of cycling is that you can just get on an go.

What is being proposed that mean you won't be able to just get on and go?

You just won't be able to plough into somebody.

You can't 'plough into' anyone.

I've no idea what is being proposed. At best our current crop of politicians are incoherent. I suspect most of them still need help finding the loo.

Anyway, I doubt anything they 'think' up will make cycling a more attractive transport option. It might please a reactionary bunch of DM readers but then they hate everything including, I suspect, themselves.

Yeah but what's the point behind the comment "One of the main attractions of cycling is that you can just get on an go" - it seems to suggest you are concerned that ability in jeopardy.
Are you concerned that they will make you fill in a government form every time you want to go for a bike ride?
I'm definitely right over this.

citoyen

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Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2017, 03:38:26 pm »
Are you concerned that they will make you fill in a government form every time you want to go for a bike ride?

No, but they might make you wear special clothes, which many of us would regard as a pointless infringement of civil liberties with no genuine benefit to society and based on the experience of other countries may in fact be detrimental to public health.

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2017, 04:29:00 pm »
..or carry bells, like lepers :o
Sic transit and all that..

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2017, 04:31:59 pm »
Yeah but what's the point behind the comment "One of the main attractions of cycling is that you can just get on an go" - it seems to suggest you are concerned that ability in jeopardy.
Are you concerned that they will make you fill in a government form every time you want to go for a bike ride?
The usual commentariat are suggesting all sorts of "sensible" ideas from helmets and hiviz to cycling tests, insurance, bike registration, trackers for cyclists, and others.
I'd say ignore them, except they are the same people who have successfully indoctrinated the public into believing that there is currently a "war on the motorist" and into voting to make themselves significantly poorer. They and their ilk have been happily priming the electorate that cyclists are evil selfish menaces that want to take over all the roads and plough into pedestrians - what do you think is going to happen in the "consultation"?

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2017, 04:39:55 pm »
Are you concerned that they will make you fill in a government form every time you want to go for a bike ride?

No, but they might make you wear special clothes, which many of us would regard as a pointless infringement of civil liberties with no genuine benefit to society and based on the experience of other countries may in fact be detrimental to public health.

I would support the views of citoyen regarding compulsory wearing of clothes.  I choose to wear certain items of 'clothing' when cycling but totally oppose such items being mandated.  Effects on health are debatable and have been discussed elsewhere so no point in raising that again.

mattc

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Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2017, 07:15:52 pm »
Without the aberrance that is central London, approximately no one cycles in the UK because, tbh, unless you're passionate about cycling it's a bit shit, somewhere between DIY dentistry and juggling your own poo. Sure, slap some ill-formed laws on cycling, and it'll be less than no one. One of the main attractions of cycling is that you can just get on an go.

What is being proposed that mean you won't be able to just get on and go?

You just won't be able to plough into somebody.

You can't 'plough into' anyone.


You can't plough in New Jersey
http://theridgewoodblog.net/new-jersey-and-you-cop-tells-nj-teens-to-stop-seeking-snow-shoveling-jobs/
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2017, 02:17:13 pm »
Here’s Janet Street fucking Porter:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cyclist-london-cycling-charlie-alliston-kim-briggs-helmets-vehicles-pedestrians-a7961551.html

I admit that there is one sensible paragraph in there, the one about new legislation not being required (did someone else write that bit?), but the rest of it is just complete nonsense.

Apparently we are uncivil, rude, and - if on a Boris bike - likely to be pissed or on drugs. The pavements are now as dangerous as the roads, she says.

Jaded

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Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2017, 02:31:58 pm »
Are you concerned that they will make you fill in a government form every time you want to go for a bike ride?

No, but they might make you wear special clothes, which many of us would regard as a pointless infringement of civil liberties with no genuine benefit to society and based on the experience of other countries may in fact be detrimental to public health.

I would support the views of citoyen regarding compulsory wearing of clothes.  I choose to wear certain items of 'clothing' when cycling but totally oppose such items being mandated.  Effects on health are debatable and have been discussed elsewhere so no point in raising that again.

 ::-) ::-) who says???
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Ben T

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Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2017, 07:45:16 pm »
Are you concerned that they will make you fill in a government form every time you want to go for a bike ride?

No, but they might make you wear special clothes, which many of us would regard as a pointless infringement of civil liberties with no genuine benefit to society and based on the experience of other countries may in fact be detrimental to public health.

That isn't really related to the incident that's prompted it though, so can't really be a response to it. If this guy was wearing "safety" items it still would have happened, so I would therefore go so far as to say airing concern about those potential laws in this thread is therefore off topic. This is "what changes would you make to cycling law", we all know exactly  (and are fairly sick of you droning on about) what changes you don't want to be made to cycling law.
I'm definitely right over this.

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2017, 07:55:26 pm »
Are you concerned that they will make you fill in a government form every time you want to go for a bike ride?

No, but they might make you wear special clothes, which many of us would regard as a pointless infringement of civil liberties with no genuine benefit to society and based on the experience of other countries may in fact be detrimental to public health.

I would support the views of citoyen regarding compulsory wearing of clothes.  I choose to wear certain items of 'clothing' when cycling but totally oppose such items being mandated.  Effects on health are debatable and have been discussed elsewhere so no point in raising that again.

 ::-) ::-) who says???

Anyone interested in not derailing the thread into something that has been discussed extensively elsewhere on this thread.

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2017, 07:56:44 pm »
Indeed, BenT, I'm finding it fascinating that so few ideas are surfacing. Must be perfect as it is, well able to cope with the challenges of modern infrastructure and habits. Electric bikes? Well there not really bikes are they?

Whether it is this time or the next, there will be changes to bike legislation, we can't even imagine what we want, let alone agree on it.

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2017, 09:09:35 pm »
NI already has compulsory bells on bikes (not just at point of sale), can imagine they'll want to "harmonise the law across the entire UK".
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Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2017, 09:38:18 pm »
Honestly I can't think of any improvements that would make a difference to day-to-day cycling, other than pipe dreams - mandating Dutch-level quality standards for infra? Presumed liability?

Brutally, given the context in which this review is being conducted, the role of cycling advocates is going to be damage limitation.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2017, 10:11:49 pm »
That isn't really related to the incident that's prompted it though, so can't really be a response to it. If this guy was wearing "safety" items it still would have happened, so I would therefore go so far as to say airing concern about those potential laws in this thread is therefore off topic.

Re your comment:
Quote
Yeah but what's the point behind the comment "One of the main attractions of cycling is that you can just get on an go" - it seems to suggest you are concerned that ability in jeopardy.

That ability would be put in jeopardy by mandatory special clothing laws. And if you think a review of the law relating to cycling would restrict itself to matters pertinent to the Charlie Alliston case, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

You asked the question, that's the answer. I'm not trying to derail the thread and have no interest in discussing that matter any further.

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2017, 10:26:54 pm »
To answer the question, I'm not sure that the current law regarding the responsibilities that cyclists have is all that problematic.
Maybe the law regarding shared use paths needs to be clarified. Maybe they could be more clear on legality of lights and reflectors? I'm not sure speed limits are a relevance for bicycles. I'd prefer it if the limit for electrical assist was higher than 15mph, because it could make e-bikes much more useful as a daily mode of transport for more people, but if it resulted in mandatory insurance, helmets or plates, it's not worth it
The majority of the changes to road safety law that are needed apply to motor vehicles, not bicycles IMO.

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #69 on: September 24, 2017, 06:47:58 am »
On my York shared use track the signs make it very clear that the onus is on cyclists to avoid pedestrians. It seems to work and I take it that is the general rule - without doing any research.
Sic transit and all that..

fd3

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #70 on: September 24, 2017, 08:02:00 am »
A re-vamp of motoring offences is badly needed.  I see no problem in principle with covering pedal cycles (and horseists and whatever) under the same laws, so speed limits would apply to bicycles and cyclists could be charged with drink driving or dangerous driving.  Then everyone knows where they stand, and cyclists can carry on as normal.

The lighting regulations for cycles need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the century of the fruitbat.  I'd be in favour of something like the German or Dutch regs - let's mandate static dynamo/e-bike battery powered lighting with sensible beams at point of sale, unless the bike is designed for racing or off-road riding.  Make pedal reflectors optional, while we're at it.
On the face of it It makes sense but:
Issue of rider knowing their speed.
Issue of what proper stopping distance is at that speed on a horse/bike (not the same as a car so speed limit should be different)
Travelling at different speeds would mean that drinking limits could be different (also the horse can bring you home when you're too drunk to navigate).
Mandatory lights/dynamos mean that either all bikes get much more expensive (a serious issue for anyone, especially with kids) or the Dynamo/lights are not that great, which is as much of an issue as not having them (my experience of bikes in Germany was very poor Dynamo lighting).

Which is why it needs quite a bit of considered thought.

It also seems to me that possibly what we need is local, not national laws.  In London we have a large mass of new cyclists riding dangerously; but in the Midlands we still have very few cyclists.  Why regulate nationally for a local problem (even if it is in London)?

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2017, 09:14:13 am »
On my York shared use track the signs make it very clear that the onus is on cyclists to avoid pedestrians. It seems to work and I take it that is the general rule - without doing any research.

That is the big issue - pedestrians have the right to be anywhere on the highway. A cyclist should not shimmy around a pedestrian in their way, just as a driver should not blast their horn expecting pedestrians to leap out of the road. Unfortunately the principle that you should take care not step out immediately in front of a vehicle where they might not have seen you or not have enough time to stop, has been warped into the idea that you have to keep the hell out of the way of anyone in a vehicle and vehicles should never have to slow down except for other vehicles.

A recent chat on the cycle channel at work revealed that most people there believed that jaywalking is illegal, crossing against the red man or away from the crossing is illegal, and pedestrians who do those things should expect to get run over.

As I said above, I think our culture is to blame. Other countries, even where they do have laws about keeping off the road, have a culture where people don't feel the entitlement to plough through just because they happen to be in a vehicle and will give way out of politeness, just as you do when not in a vehicle.
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citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2017, 09:57:58 am »
Issue of rider knowing their speed.

I don't think this is the issue with speed limits for bikes so much as how to enforce them. If there were a speed limit, it would be the cyclist's responsibility to observe it one way or another.

Speed limits for cars are generally enforced by camera, with offenders identified by their car's registration. Unless you want to divert already limited police resources into having coppers patrolling cycle lanes with speed guns, you'd need to introduce registration for bikes to make the law enforceable in any practical way. (Same goes for CCTV enforcement of red lights for cyclists.)

Secondly, there would need to be some genuine evidence that speeding cyclists are a problem before such a law could justifiably be introduced - something a bit more substantial than an anecdotal observation that some people behave like dicks on cycle superhighways - eg a high number of KSIs caused by speeding cyclists. No doubt if such evidence exists it will be uncovered by the promised judicial review.

There's nothing wrong with the idea of updating archaic laws in principle but is it really the best use of our legislators' time? Yes, there are plenty of idiots on bikes out there, but the idea that cyclists on the whole are a menace to society is just nonsense.

Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2017, 10:06:51 am »
Issue of rider knowing their speed.

I don't think this is the issue with speed limits for bikes so much as how to enforce them. If there were a speed limit, it would be the cyclist's responsibility to observe it one way or another.

Indeed, just as it is a driver's responsibility to be within the drink drive limits despite having no way to measure their current breath/blood alcohol levels.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Jaded

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Re: What changes would you make to cycling law?
« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2017, 10:26:23 am »
Are you concerned that they will make you fill in a government form every time you want to go for a bike ride?

No, but they might make you wear special clothes, which many of us would regard as a pointless infringement of civil liberties with no genuine benefit to society and based on the experience of other countries may in fact be detrimental to public health.

I would support the views of citoyen regarding compulsory wearing of clothes.  I choose to wear certain items of 'clothing' when cycling but totally oppose such items being mandated.  Effects on health are debatable and have been discussed elsewhere so no point in raising that again.

 ::-) ::-) who says???

Anyone interested in not derailing the thread into something that has been discussed extensively elsewhere on this thread.

Effects on health are of paramount importance. If the effects on health are not considered then any new laws will most likely be bad laws.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.