Author Topic: Uber loses London licence  (Read 3230 times)

Wowbagger

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 11:41:01 am »
I don't know how long the appeal process takes, but I'm sure Uber will launch their appeal close to the 30th so they can continue to operate whilst the appeal process is going on (the existing law has this provision).

Given that the current license was a 4 month extension of their older 5 year license I wouldn't be surprised if they negotiate yet another extension whilst this is sorted out.

And then I'm sure the problems identified (crime reporting, medical certificates, DBS checks, greyball) will be smoothed over by the increase in license fee from the £3000 they paid 5 and a bit years ago to the ~£3,000,000 that they need to pay now as they have over 10,000 vehicles registered.

Can't begin to imagine how hard a loss of license, even for a few weeks, would hit the tens of thousands of Uber drivers in London.
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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 01:23:32 pm »
Quote
The current licence expires on 30 September but Uber has 21 days to appeal and can continue to operate until that process expires.
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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 01:25:56 pm »
There was something similar in Poland but I didn't read the details.

Edit: It's that a new law is being brought in requiring agents and go-betweens in passenger transport to obtain a licence. At the same time licences for individual taxi drivers are being made cheaper and easier to obtain.
Pleasure spreads out on the map and the knapsack is full of joy.

Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 01:42:15 pm »
Quote
The current licence expires on 30 September but Uber has 21 days to appeal and can continue to operate until that process expires.

That's badly paraphrased in the article, it makes it sound like the appeal process must be completed within 21 days. The original is:-

"
The Private Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998 includes provision to appeal a licensing decision within 21 days of it being communicated to the applicant. Uber London Limited can continue to operate until any appeal processes have been exhausted.
"

They have 21 days from now (assuming it was communicated to the Uber today) to start their appeal(s).

If they don't launch their appeal before the current license expires on September 30th then they'll have to stop operating on that date (it's not clear what time on that date the license expires). They could only continue to operate after 30th September if they do launch an appeal, so not launching it before the current license expires would be very foolish.

The only thing that makes sense is to launch the appeal as close to the license expiry date as possible to maximise the amount of time to get prepared for the appeal process (which takes an unspecified amount of time).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2017, 02:11:17 pm »
I interpreted it as meaning Uber have 21 days from now to launch an appeal and can continue operating as long as the appeal is still underway. What it doesn't say is whether there's any limit on the duration of the appeal hearing.
Pleasure spreads out on the map and the knapsack is full of joy.

ian

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2017, 04:58:43 pm »
I confess I use Uber a lot, it's handy and effective and a lot, lot cheaper than ordinary taxis (more so in London, where black cabs are extremely pricey). Plus a black cab tried to kill me once and though I'm not supposed to blame them all, they don't make it easy. But thankfully I suppose their rigorous licensing scheme ensures that they're not driven by, oh, serial rapists or anything.

That said, I think Uber should be subject to same rigorous rules, but equally black cabs shouldn't get a pass either. It's the 21st century and we have satellites and all kind of cool stuff, so yeah, it's cool they know the A-Z but somewhat redundant.
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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2017, 09:07:18 pm »
As a company, there's a lot to dislike about Uber - they give Addison Lee and the LTDA a run for their money - but on the very few occasions I've used Uber in London, I've had exemplary service. One in particular was the most skilled and relaxed driver I've ever been in a car with, who had some kind of Zen magic approach to South London traffic.

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2017, 09:58:29 pm »
... (more so in London, where black cabs are extremely pricey)...
And even more so when they short change you.  When I next need a taxi in London it won't be a black cab.
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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2017, 07:19:33 am »
Quote
If they don't launch their appeal before the current license expires on September 30th then they'll have to stop operating on that date (it's not clear what time on that date the license expires).

It'll be midnight.. All Uber taxis will be turned into pumpkins, which will be handy for Hallowe'en.
Sic transit and all that..

barakta

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2017, 09:12:43 am »
I don't like Uber's shared-responsibility no-shared-liability model, exploitation of employees or lack of tax paying model amongst other things, but I'm seeing discussions that suggest banning them is racialised in that Uber is banned whereas Amazon and other orgs which are dodgy as fuck too aren't treated in the same way and that People of Colour rely on Uber because other services WON'T serve them and their communities in the same way (I know many black folk who say standard cabs won't stop for them, and other minicabs won't come to certain areas).

https://twitter.com/sunnysingh_n6/status/911171124616138752

I do agree that London's black cabs have a lot of lobbying power and can be dodgy as fuck. 

Somewhere else I was reading that to do the Knowledge you need money, education, time etc which many folk who work for Uber etc don't have.

I'd love to see some of the good things about Uber used without the nasty horrible bits cos I'm sure that could be done well. Same for things like AirB&B, Deliveroo etc.

Biggsy

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2017, 10:09:12 am »
I'm fucking furious about this.  Uber has made a great improvement to my parents' lives that are very hard because of disability and chronic illness.

The standard UberX service is great for my mum as we can get a car within 5 mins any time and see where it is, so there's no worry about it arriving too early (like happens with ordinary mini cabs), no need to book in advance, and I can follow her progress from home through the app, etc, etc.

Also the Uber Access service - with specially adapted vans to take a passenger seated in their wheelchair - has been invaluable for my dad who can hardly get in an ordinary car.  It's not even any more expensive than UberX.  Hospital-supplied transport, Dial-a-Ride, etc, just don't provide the same level of convenience.  And convenience is very important when you're as ill and disabled as my parents.

Anyway, regardless of all that, even for ordinary healthy able-bodied people, it's just ridiculous to go backwards and not use current technology for booking and managing minicab use.  Because that's all Uber is, basically.  It's just a big minicab service that happens to use highly efficient systems.  The operators and drivers have the same licences and checks as old-fashioned minicab ones AFAIK.

Ok, if safety needs to be improved, then improve it.  They will not get away with throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  There will be massive demonstrations of all sorts and Kahn hopefully will eventually resign.  He'll never be re-elected anyway.  I'm embarrassed that I voted for him.  I must have been ignorant on his policies.  My mother (with generally opposite political views from myself) says this would never have happened under Boris, and she's right.
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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2017, 10:41:18 am »
Uberexit? 

 
Quote
do agree that London's black cabs have a lot of lobbying power and can be dodgy as fuck. 

As do York cabs.

However, why shouldn't Saddiq Khan stand up to a corporation in a bid to get conditions for its workers improved? 



They were warned, May 2017:

Quote
United Private Hire Drivers, which says it has 1,200 members and organised a go-slow protest blocking roads in the capital in November last year, is calling on Transport for London to insist Uber and other minicab drivers are guaranteed basic employment rights, including the minimum wage and holiday pay, under the terms of its new five-year licence.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/09/uber-licence-drivers-gmb-transport-for-london

Boris Johnson siding with an American Corporation?  You bet he would.

 
Sic transit and all that..

Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2017, 10:43:06 am »
Anyway, why is this in the cycling section?  Vroom or  :demon: POBI :demon:?
Sic transit and all that..

Biggsy

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2017, 11:04:53 am »
The drivers deserve a higher share of the Uber takings, but taking away their opportunity to earn anything at all (from their chosen line of work) is not helping them!!.  40,000 people will be suddenly unemployed if the ban goes ahead.

Some new legislation may be needed to improve the rights and earnings of the pseudo-self-employed in general.
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mcshroom

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2017, 12:14:32 pm »
It's not a ban. Uber are not, in the opinion of the licencing authority, meeting the requirements to be allowed a licence to operate. Those requirements being around safeguarding. This is after having already having been given a 4 month extension to allow them to get their house in order, and still with an option to appeal.

After all that time, if they cannot still meet the standards that other operators are expected to, then why should they be given a license to operate?
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Biggsy

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2017, 12:47:10 pm »
No time for pendantics.  It's a ban.  And they're as safe as an average old-fashioned little minicab firm.

I've also got no time to read any more replies.  By bye for now.
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mcshroom

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2017, 12:57:41 pm »
It's about who is doing what. If they were being banned then the authorities would be stopping Uber from doing things that normally they would be allowed to do. Not granting a licence is because Uber aren't doing things they (and other operators granted licences) are required to do.

How it's described loads the debate.
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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2017, 12:58:18 pm »
It's not a ban. Uber are not, in the opinion of the licencing authority, meeting the requirements to be allowed a licence to operate. Those requirements being around safeguarding. This is after having already having been given a 4 month extension to allow them to get their house in order, and still with an option to appeal.

After all that time, if they cannot still meet the standards that other operators are expected to, then why should they be given a license to operate?

Quite.

If only the 400,000 people who have already signed the petition understood that.

They aren’t going to lose their licence. They’ll meet, or make some reasonable attempt to meet, the requirements and all will carry on as before, and those that for whatever reason need to curry favour with the black cabbies will have achieved their aim.

mattc

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2017, 01:13:02 pm »
Driver has his say:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/23/over-uber-london-driver-fares-rivals-work

Very insightful article and particularly the last comment about paying quite a bit of money on an evening out and then expecting to pay very little for a lift back to wherever.

A business model aimed to crush the opponents and then survive as the prime provider of a service will always have to result in savings and it is how you achieve them. Uber appear to be achieving that by some methods that have been exposed as not meeting certain expected standards.

Jaded

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Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2017, 01:22:34 pm »
Yes, it is, J.  And very good, too.  Thanks.

Peter

Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2017, 05:02:28 pm »
Uber's response to the announcement has not been to accept responsibility for it's own fate but instead it has tried to mobilise sympathy for all those drivers who will be out of work.
Yet not that long ago Uber was telling an employment tribunal that drivers were not employed by Uber and therefore were not eligible for sick pay, pensions or paid holidays. Go figure.


Re: Uber loses London licence
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2017, 06:02:08 pm »
I hope this link is good beyond the paywall.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/when-the-penny-drops-on-bodega-it-will-too-late-to-save-local-shops-2rxnmt58k?shareToken=8d2c9b60d55c5d57fccf801295e87184

And the use of online sources for cycle related stuff is fairly obvious amongst users on this Forum that include me via Rapha, Wiggle or Ribble. I also use local bike shops and often source something from them even though I can get it quicker and cheaper online. Online sourcing for other goods is rife and sometimes necessary as it is the only means of sourcing it. I am currently waiting for a piece of kit that my local bike shop is providing that I could have got next day from Wiggle. They are ordering it from supplier and even showed me the price the supplier was demanding. The mark-up, using what Wiggle charge is not massive and the shop was somewhat surprised. No way can they match prices available at Wiggle/Ribble for other more expensive such as SRAM E-Tap. But they will repair your bike when you break it.

So where is the Uber connection? Well firstly, I would hope the online stores treat their workers appropriately and not as shoddy as Uber appear to do as outlined by Madcow. Secondly, if we always source the cheapest then we must accept that sooner or later those with more overheads will not survive and will disappear, which appears to be the business plan of folk like Uber as outlined by the former Uber driver in the Guardian article. If we join the race to the bottom, in terms of cost, then we must accept what goes with that and take our responsibility for helping create it and if Uber is considered a shoddy employer bordering on slave labour for some, then those using the service must accept they are supporting that.

I note Mayor of London is suggesting folk direct their anger at Uber rather than TfL for doing their job. Many folk suggesting Uber follow the rules and do as they were told to do. It appears they believe they are a law unto themselves.