Author Topic: World cup 2018  (Read 28365 times)

Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #550 on: July 24, 2018, 02:49:56 am »
All interesting figures - thanks, both.

citoyen

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Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #551 on: July 24, 2018, 09:39:01 am »
His Man City affiliations don't affect my judgement because I'm going off his England performances.

Which is fine, up to a point. But given that the national side plays no more than a handful of competitive fixtures in a season, surely club form has to be the primary metric for selection?

Beyond that, the manager has to choose players to fit the system. Or has to choose a system that will work with the players at his disposal... Which brings us back to the question of why Sterling isn't able to recreate his club stats for England. Something obviously isn't clicking for him at national level - and it may well be, as you say, that we don't have that Paul Scholes type player in midfield, or that Kane isn't the right partner for him.

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Unfortunately his England stats are - 2906 minutes played, 2 goals = 1453 minutes per goal vs Rashford's 350 mins per goal (3 England goals) and Emile Heskey's 485 in 3401 minutes (7 England Goals)

You're obviously including friendlies in your assessment. In competitive fixtures, which are the only ones that really count, Sterling has 2 goals from 1802 minutes played (27 caps), while Rashford has 1 goal from 646 minutes played (16 caps).
 
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He compares badly to Emile Heskey (who was derided for his lack of England goals).

Emile Heskey was a bizarre player. I often thought he'd make a better defender than attacker, as his tackling was excellent, although his distribution was appalling.

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He's got time to improve, and I think he needs to improve,  his positional sense, his vision, his awareness of others, his ruthlessness in front of goal, quickly.

He's overrated at the moment though.  I would say that, at 23 years of age, if he was going to be truly World class, then he'd be showing true World class by now.

Agree with you on all that.

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We're desperately short of a "Paul Scholes" in front of Henderson.

If only Kevin de Bruyne had chosen his mother's nationality...

I've seen Jonjo Shelvey's name mentioned. He would add something interesting to the side - as long as he could avoid getting sent off.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mr Larrington

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Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #552 on: July 24, 2018, 09:50:51 am »
Deserves a mention:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44915730

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"I am German when we win, but I am an immigrant when we lose," [Mesut] Ozil said.

I had to wonder how France's non-white players (i.e. most of them) would be treated if France had lost. Probably no better.

One of Belgium's players said much the same thing while the tournament was still going on.
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citoyen

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Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #553 on: July 24, 2018, 09:58:44 am »
I had to wonder how France's non-white players (i.e. most of them) would be treated if France had lost. Probably no better.

Ask Christian Karembeu. He got it even when France were winning.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #554 on: July 24, 2018, 10:59:03 am »
I've seen Jonjo Shelvey's name mentioned. He would add something interesting to the side - as long as he could avoid getting sent off.

He keeps popping onto my radar but I really haven't seen much of him. 
The "expert panels" all seem to rate him but, on appearance alone, he looks like a red card about to happen, and I can't look at him without thinking he must surely be wanted for war-crimes somewhere.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

citoyen

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Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #555 on: July 24, 2018, 11:18:29 am »
Shelvey is undoubtedly a skilful player but has an unfortunate record for racism and violence. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the main reason he is overlooked for the national team.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #556 on: July 24, 2018, 12:08:40 pm »
Shelvey is a great highlights player. He has got a little more consistent playing for Rafa, but he has not completely removed his ability to shoot himself in both feet in 1 game. His most memorable game came when he scored and provided the assist for Swansea, but also provided 2 assists for Liverpool in a 2-2 draw! https://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/17/swansea-jonjo-shelvey-apologises-liverpool

IMO Ali is a slightly more athletic Lampard - he's great at arriving late, he can score lots of different sorts of goals, but he isn't a player you want dropping deep and trying to set a tempo. Even though their technique has got a lot better in recent years, there has been a distinct lack of English midfielders with the vision and ability to set a tempo and pass teams to distraction. Carrick is probably the only one who was that player (Scholes, Gerrard and others might have had the ability, but tended to play different roles for their teams). Henderson is a bargain bin version - he needs an incisive player or 2 in front of him to make the difference while he keeps things ticking over.

I think Sterling has been unfortunate in that England have always been built around a player who doesn't suit his style. At Citeh he's been a false 9, at LFC he was a #10, both with mobile ball playing forwards buzzing around him, but with England everything fits around the way Kane (and before him Rooney) does things, and they are/were traditional number 9s. His vision and passing ability when playing behind Sturridge/Suarez was very impressive, and he's clearly been effective for Citeh in their front 3, but none of those players are remotely similar to Kane. The strange thing about him is that he doesn't strike the ball very well - most attackers with half his talent have the ability to put their laces through something and really ping it, but he seems to be lacking that completely and I don't understand why/how that has not been developed.

citoyen

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Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #557 on: July 24, 2018, 12:35:54 pm »
Ali is a slightly more athletic Lampard

Now that's what I call damning with faint praise!  ;D

Ross Barkley needs to start getting some regular game time for Chelsea – and living up to his billing as 'The New Gazza'. If he's even half as good as Gazza, he could be very useful for England.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

LEE

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Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #558 on: July 24, 2018, 12:41:52 pm »
The strange thing about him is that he doesn't strike the ball very well - most attackers with half his talent have the ability to put their laces through something and really ping it, but he seems to be lacking that completely and I don't understand why/how that has not been developed.

Just as Messi has built a Youtube legacy of impossible goals, Sterling is creating a similar catalogue of absolute Howlers. 

I just don't think he's a natural and I worry when I think of coaches, like Guardiola, using flip-charts and marker pens, showing, with lots of arrows, where Raheem need to be when David Silva is here, and there..etc.   Yes, Guardiola may have improved Sterling, but he improved him from a fairly average standard (in my opinion).  He's quick.

Suarez is the perfect example of someone not needing a lesson with Flip-chart and marker pens.  He's an absolute twat of a human but you have to admit he's gifted at being in the right place or making something from nothing.  He also, like other greats, made average team-mates seem better than they were.  No names mentioned.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

citoyen

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Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #559 on: July 24, 2018, 12:47:04 pm »
Suarez is the perfect example of someone not needing a lesson with Flip-chart and marker pens.  He's an absolute twat of a human but you have to admit he's gifted at being in the right place or making something from nothing.  He also, like other greats, made average team-mates seem better than they were.  No names mentioned.

Oh, come on - Messi and Coutinho aren't that bad! ;)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #560 on: July 24, 2018, 01:23:35 pm »
Suarez is the perfect example of someone not needing a lesson with Flip-chart and marker pens.  He's an absolute twat of a human but you have to admit he's gifted at being in the right place or making something from nothing.  He also, like other greats, made average team-mates seem better than they were.  No names mentioned.

Oh, come on - Messi and Coutinho aren't that bad! ;)
:)
And while they seemed to co-exist rather than work together, he and Studge made quite a pair as well.
I think England at this World cup were a team that only advanced because of the flip chart and marker pens.  How many set piece goals did they score?

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #561 on: July 24, 2018, 01:41:22 pm »
Suarez is the perfect example of someone not needing a lesson with Flip-chart and marker pens.  He's an absolute twat of a human but you have to admit he's gifted at being in the right place or making something from nothing.  He also, like other greats, made average team-mates seem better than they were.  No names mentioned.

Oh, come on - Messi and Coutinho aren't that bad! ;)
:)
And while they seemed to co-exist rather than work together, he and Studge made quite a pair as well.
I think England at this World cup were a team that only advanced because of the flip chart and marker pens.  How many set piece goals did they score?

True.  Sam Allardyce must have been turning in his grave.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #562 on: July 24, 2018, 05:42:57 pm »
Ross Barkley needs to start getting some regular game time for Chelsea

Always a Marmite character, but always intriguing, Roy Keane was asked on ITV at the end of the WC how he saw England developing under Southgate -

"It won't be down to Gareth Southgate how England develop, it will be down to how many games these players get playing for their clubs - that's where they'll develop."


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citoyen

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Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #563 on: July 24, 2018, 06:59:00 pm »
Ross Barkley needs to start getting some regular game time for Chelsea

Always a Marmite character, but always intriguing, Roy Keane was asked on ITV at the end of the WC how he saw England developing under Southgate -

"It won't be down to Gareth Southgate how England develop, it will be down to how many games these players get playing for their clubs - that's where they'll develop."

To be fair, Barkley was still recovering from a long-term injury when he joined Chelsea in January. But the new manager seems to like him and he may well find himself quickly promoted to a key role in the team if Hazard goes to Madrid. Those will be big boots to fill though.

There was a piece in the Guardian recently about how some of England's up-and-coming young players have moved to Germany precisely because they won't get a look in at the top English clubs. I don't think that is a bad thing at all. I'd like to see more English players playing abroad. It'll be good for the development of their game to broaden their cultural horizons.

Roy Keane was one of the few pundits worth listening to during the World Cup. He's the best thing about ITV's Champions League coverage too.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: World cup 2018
« Reply #564 on: July 24, 2018, 07:27:56 pm »
Agreed.  Roy Keane just cuts to the chase.  Even the foreign pundits are carefully patronising and over-polite. 
What I wouldn't give for a character like that in midfield for England.  Kyle Walker may still walk leisurely back to his position, his back to play, but he'd only do it once.

What would Brian Clough say I wonder?
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.