Poll

Winter 200km with 3 commercial controls + ? 3 Infos ?

Wouldn't touch it with a barge pole if it has Info Controls
1 (0.6%)
Would rather route was an extra 10km to avoid having any infos
26 (16.7%)
Wouldn't want to add more than 5km to be able to avoid infos
22 (14.1%)
Keep route as short as possible, I don't mind Infos
90 (57.7%)
Would rather mandatory route enforced by Secret Controls
17 (10.9%)

Total Members Voted: 155

Author Topic: How much do people dislike Info controls ?  (Read 11747 times)

Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #150 on: March 12, 2019, 09:50:11 am »
“Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.”  Pablo Picasso

Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #151 on: March 12, 2019, 10:11:13 am »
“Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist.”  Pablo Picasso
Love it, Phil.

Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #152 on: March 12, 2019, 10:19:00 am »
It's possibly best not to publicise these misdemeanours too widely.  ;)

They aren't just publicised here - they are celebrated
Yeah, but what if ACP's spies are reading this and jotting down names?

Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
  • Mrs Pingu's domestique
    • the Igloo
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #153 on: March 12, 2019, 10:22:08 am »
It's possibly best not to publicise these misdemeanours too widely.  ;)

They aren't just publicised here - they are celebrated
Yeah, but what if ACP's spies are reading this and jotting down names?

Don't tell him, Pike!

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
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Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #154 on: March 12, 2019, 10:54:31 am »
Never miss a nympho.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Martin

  • Give me bas relief
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Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #155 on: March 12, 2019, 12:43:05 pm »
I've no problem with people just riding round not collecting infos or stamps but it's extra work for the remote controllers to have to know not to expect some riders even though they started, I'd rather riders either told the controllers out of courtesy as they ride round or just left their card at the start or handed back to the org so they can be marked DNV and added to the list of DNS's to be txt'd to the other helpers many of whom will not be at the start / finish

FWIW it only saves the organiser 20p a rider, we still have to pay the temporary insurance and brevet card fee

Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #156 on: March 12, 2019, 07:07:32 pm »
I don't mind a couple of infos - they can be a little bit of fun - but too many, especially if they're tricky to find can be irritating and if like me I'm really slow and info controls have been stressful if you're already borderline with making the time cut off and having to 'treasure hunt' to try and find them - especially once it's gone dark

I remember a 200km where I had to find a road sign in the dark and was going back and forth for some time and it was not a nice experience and gave up - then found a similar road sign further along so I snapped a photo as evidence that I was 'nearly there and at around that time' which the organiser accepted. But, when its dark and its getting colder and you're by yourself and you just want to get back so you can get home it was not much in the way of fun - especially if you're not even sure if for the remainder of the ride if all your hard work riding the route would mean you fail or not if you haven't found the info.

So, yes to a couple of them maybe earlier on in the route in daylight, but would prefer not to have any once its ikely to be darker (know that's not an easy ask)


telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #157 on: March 12, 2019, 07:48:15 pm »
It's easy to set infos which are visible in the dark - a pub name or the price of petrol at a garage for example.
2017 - R500 ✅ | 2018 - R1000 ✅ | 2019 - ?

Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #158 on: March 12, 2019, 07:55:19 pm »
It's easy to set infos which are visible in the dark - a pub name or the price of petrol at a garage for example.

You are making assumptions there.

I'm pleased to say that none of my events have infos now. 

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #159 on: March 12, 2019, 08:20:44 pm »
No infos is the aspiration. Last years London Orbital had no infos. This years has three (mebbe get it down to two) due to route changes. Soz.

I've taken to setting non-googleable infos.  "Topic of an Article on a noticeboard" is current fav.

Other times I put up my own "Banners". Seems to work well for events with a high percentage of non-AUKs. 

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #160 on: March 12, 2019, 10:35:14 pm »
Other times I put up my own "Banners". Seems to work well for events with a high percentage of non-AUKs.

A few times I’ve seen home-made signs taped to lampposts as info controls - I’ve thought of using this strategy myself but it requires having the time to go out and place the signs as late as possible before the event.

Also passes the google street view test.

Martin

  • Give me bas relief
    • WWW
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #161 on: March 12, 2019, 11:25:19 pm »
Other times I put up my own "Banners". Seems to work well for events with a high percentage of non-AUKs.


(although it's usually me!) what's the date this year? good excuse to drag myself into enough fitness to ride a AAA 200

Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #162 on: March 12, 2019, 11:33:05 pm »
I don't mind infos but some of the hassle that some riders feel can be minimised by:
Making the location of the info crystal clear on the routesheet with an accurate distance from a clear turning or other item listed immediately before it on the routesheet and a distance from start. And include a description of the control's location in the brevet itself, with the 'question'.
For example (from @Steve P's CNF coming up this Saturday):
TL into WINSON $ Winson Village Only _______130m
WINSON 17km Info Control by Post Box ____130m
(It's a slightly wonky village notice board - from Streetview)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #163 on: March 12, 2019, 11:39:45 pm »
I don't mind infos but some of the hassle that some riders feel can be minimised by:
Making the location of the info crystal clear on the routesheet with an accurate distance from a clear turning or other item listed immediately before it on the routesheet and a distance from start.

Agreed.  GPX waypoints (or old-school written coordinates) are ideal, but in their absence the routesheet description should be precise enough so that we can create our own waypoints without any more knowledge than can be obtained from a map.  I don't mind getting off and reading some factoid off a notice board or whatever, as long as I don't have to waste time trying to work out where it is.

I think where it tends to go wrong is when organisers change the info question to use some other nearby object and don't update the route.

What I really hate is "$factoid on sign in $village" when the village is a kilometre long and there's no indication of where in the village the sign is supposed to be.  Even if it's obvious when you eventually get to it, it can mean you're slowing down and worrying that you've missed something unnecessarily.  It's proof of passage, not a puzzle game.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #164 on: March 13, 2019, 07:51:07 am »
I don't mind infos but some of the hassle that some riders feel can be minimised by:
Making the location of the info crystal clear on the routesheet with an accurate distance from a clear turning or other item listed immediately before it on the routesheet and a distance from start. And include a description of the control's location in the brevet itself, with the 'question'.
For example (from @Steve P's CNF coming up this Saturday):
TL into WINSON $ Winson Village Only _______130m
WINSON 17km Info Control by Post Box ____130m
(It's a slightly wonky village notice board - from Streetview)

And for those of us who use paper route sheets — put those two instructions on the same side of the sheet! One route, with way too many infos had a left turn, uphill, as the last instruction in a section. About 10 km later (no other turnings before that) I turned the route sheet to find "Info control at LT". I did not retrace.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #165 on: March 13, 2019, 08:10:36 am »
I set waypoints showing position of controls on gpx tracks. It's a mystery to me whether GPS devices show them, or riders have their GPS set to show them, or know how, know the facility exists or understand why it's relevant....

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #166 on: March 13, 2019, 08:36:24 am »
Frustratingly I find that they don't seem to appear on my Garmin when I transfer them across, so I have to manually use Garmin Connect and label their locations on my laptop which takes about 10 mins 💁‍♂️

Otherwise I refer to the Brevet and try not to forget that e.g. the next control is at 87 km.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #167 on: March 13, 2019, 09:38:53 am »
On my first ever 200, the infos were "Collection time in $Village 999km". I hadn't a clue what this meant and was actually expecting to see a village notice board with bin collection times (or collection of something). Then I saw a post box in more or less the right place. Now I know that "collection time" unless otherwise specified means "post box" but perhaps organisers could spare a thought for newbies when they phrase their questions.
An ungovernable laughter, a joyous agitation which makes the summer stretching before you seem like an unrolling canvas on which you might draw those first rude pure strokes that are free. (Capote)

billy crystal

  • aka hillbilly
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #168 on: March 13, 2019, 11:59:07 am »
There is something ironic that the most popular response in a long-distance club is to have the route as short as possible.

When I created routes, I tried to avoid having more than one info every 50km, reflecting a personal preference.  I find overly frequent infos break the natural rhythm of the ride.  This choice did lead to overdistance events (generally around 5-10%).  Generally to take riders own nicer roads than the shortest distance might lead them onto (of course, they still had the option of riding those, I simply didn't have them on the routesheet).

I did rely on them to create 50/100k grimpeur events though.  That reflected the geography of the South East, where climbing is in relatively compact areas.  I was never convinced that they resulted in nice experiences (even if the routes were nice and appropriately challenging).  If I was to run them now, I'd probably do them as mandatory routes if that were an option.
By the time a man is wise enough to watch his step, he's too old to go anywhere.

BeMoreMike

  • Tries often, fails frequently.
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #169 on: March 13, 2019, 02:28:59 pm »
I used to like the novelty of info's but the more events I do the more frustrated I sometimes get with them. I accept that sometimes they're necessary and agree that they sometimes break up the monotony of the ride, but they must be absolutely clear, unmistakable and be easy to remember.

An example recently was "73km the number on a yellow fire hydrant" This was in a large village which had at least 4 in a 1km stretch, all with different numbers. Yet on that road was a large unmissable war memorial with stacks of usable info.




ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #170 on: March 13, 2019, 02:39:36 pm »
Frustratingly I find that they don't seem to appear on my Garmin when I transfer them across, so I have to manually use Garmin Connect and label their locations on my laptop which takes about 10 mins 💁‍♂️

Otherwise I refer to the Brevet and try not to forget that e.g. the next control is at 87 km.

I take the same approach, at the previous control, snack stop etc - quick check of the card, what's next? Only problem I've had with that was control at XXkm, when in fact it was XX-2km on my Garmin and XX was halfway up a hill in Essex with no pub anywhere near, and I'd not been watching though the previous village.

Organiser said it was down to Google routing vs real routing?
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #171 on: March 13, 2019, 03:16:46 pm »
There is something ironic that the most popular response in a long-distance club is to have the route as short as possible.
Ride more, read less!
An ungovernable laughter, a joyous agitation which makes the summer stretching before you seem like an unrolling canvas on which you might draw those first rude pure strokes that are free. (Capote)

Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #172 on: March 13, 2019, 03:22:42 pm »
Fairly new to this so still find a lot of it mystifying.

Did a 200 last summer which had an info control on the brevet along the lines of, 'colour of pub door in village'. At the briefing I was surprised to hear the organiser say, 'Can we all agree here and now that the pub door in the village is red?'

Why would the org put in an info control and then give it away?
Hear all, see all, say nowt

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #173 on: March 13, 2019, 04:21:03 pm »
Fairly new to this so still find a lot of it mystifying.

Did a 200 last summer which had an info control on the brevet along the lines of, 'colour of pub door in village'. At the briefing I was surprised to hear the organiser say, 'Can we all agree here and now that the pub door in the village is red?'

Why would the org put in an info control and then give it away?

To get it past AUK approval, for shortest distance between controls using google walking directions.

Given the incidence rate of colour blindness, I'd say having to identify something as red is a bit of a pain... By giving the info on the start line, you're preventing people from planning a route that avoids the info in advance.

I'm not sure why more events aren't just mandatory route, solves a lot of these issues. I agree wholeheartedly with the statement above: It's proof of passage, not a treasure hunt.

I've had a look through my Brevet card pile, in all the BRM events I've done, I've had 2 info controls, 3 photo controls, and the rest have been commercial controls.

J
--
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FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: How much do people dislike Info controls ?
« Reply #174 on: March 13, 2019, 07:56:46 pm »
For long running routes it seems that the set of questions don't get renewed.
On one ride I did we were advised that the landmark in the question had been removed roughly 10 years previously.

The distances given only apply to the "shortest route" from the previous control and can vary wildly from what your GPS says, but then so can the route sheet...
As the purpose is proof of passage provided the question is sensible and written to be unambiguous and not mistakable for another possibility in a range of distance error I see no problem.

Questions like, In Village X how far is it as signed to the village Y at the junction.
Should work quite well as it should be fairly difficult to misidentify the signpost (unless it's been removed)

But not all route are going to give you such obvious points for routing.

Codes boards are another option, though they need some financial outlay and a need to have setup and cleaning run of the route.
Fine for Motorsports where the Set up, opening and closing cars are requirements for running the event, not so when organizers may need to ride the route the day before and after and hope no one's nicked them and have to carry the weight of them both times.


From playing with DIY routes round here, getting a decent route thanks to the valley roads being pretty busy and direct and the interesting roads being twisty, up out the way and with plenty of links down to the lower roads can be tricky without having to land a virtual control in the middle of nowhere, where the only option even for an info control would be "judging by the size of the discolouration of the car, what did the Kennoway gadgies burn out here"