Author Topic: Arsene Wenger  (Read 4447 times)

Basil

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Arsene Wenger
« on: April 20, 2018, 10:32:35 pm »
Is that the correct spelling?

I'll miss him, mostly because he's about the only footbally name I actually understand and know who he is.

Errr, what, errr, I won't, errr, miss, errr, is, errr, "Errr".

Edit:. Thread title corrected.  Thanks hatler.
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Re: Arsene Wenga
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2018, 10:43:10 pm »
Wenger.
Rust never sleeps

Basil

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Re: Arsene Wenga
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2018, 10:59:55 pm »
Ok. Ta.  Errr, Title modified.
Quote from: Kim
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Mr Larrington

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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2018, 12:50:27 pm »
Has somesing 'appened to 'im?  Ah did not see ze ahncident!
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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2018, 10:48:21 pm »
Arsenal'll struggle to find another bloke with 'Arse' in his name.
It is what it is. It's not what it's not, so it must be what it is.

Wowbagger

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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2018, 11:44:11 pm »
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.
Eating's a serious business. Don't bollocks around wagging your tail.

LEE

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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 11:45:29 pm »
He left it too late to quit and tarnished his legacy at the club.

Clearly he helped raise the standards of the English game but you really don't want large sections of the fans chanting "Arsene Out" every game for 2 seasons.

As a Man U fan I was happy for him to remain and extend his new-found mediocrity for a few more seasons.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2018, 11:11:00 am »
You're spoilt, Lee.  there is nothing tarnished about Wenger's reputation.  It's all the minds of some fans.  It's up there with first world problems.  Anyone who supports a loss lofty team will tell you that.  Arsenal have finished in the top 6 for the last 22 years or something.  Nothing tarnished about that.  The man is an unqualified success.

LEE

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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 10:27:05 pm »
You're spoilt, Lee.  there is nothing tarnished about Wenger's reputation.  It's all the minds of some fans.  It's up there with first world problems.  Anyone who supports a loss lofty team will tell you that.  Arsenal have finished in the top 6 for the last 22 years or something.  Nothing tarnished about that.  The man is an unqualified success.

My point is that, if you plotted a graph of his success, it would be a classic bell-curve.  He was on an upward trajectory for the first half of his tenure and a downward one for the second. 

Quitting on the downward slope will always tarnish a reputation.  The sheer number of "Arsene Out" chants and banners, from Arsenal fans I should add, clearly mean his reputation is tarnished from what it was 10 years ago.

Now he's going, all the "Arsene Out" protests will be forgotten and the fans will rally around his highpoints.  Unfortunately his last Premiership highpoint was 14 years ago.  Even Man U (who have been in a slump) have won it 5 times since Arsenal last did.  He never won a Champions League.

He's been living on past glories for a decade or more.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2018, 10:49:02 pm »
Well, ok, but I think you miss the point about expectation.  I support Newcastle and would be happy to have spent time anywhere on that Arsenal bell curve!  The Champions League has completely distorted people's view of what success is, I think.

Basil

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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2018, 11:00:05 pm »
I think it all fell over when the Premiership season extended beyond and after the FA Cup Final. 

*says a Hardly Poo Untied supporter*   ::-)
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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 11:29:31 pm »
... if you plotted a graph of his success, it would be a classic bell-curve...

And now we're at the bell end.

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2018, 11:41:20 am »
I would argue (from the perspective of a Liverpool fan) that there are basically 3 different segments to his Arsenal career.
1. Revolutionary (but with the old back 4 and a competitive amount of money (in the top 3 most expensive teams/squads in the league)). This is when he won a lot, and established the reputation.
2. Emirates payback. More kids, less money, less winning. Enormously pretty football, generally happy fans.
3. Past it. Spending money again, but characterised by a lack of steel and inability to win the top prizes, generally out-tacticed by the top teams/coaches. Wenger Out movement noisy for this whole time.

Clearly in segment 1 he was genuinely revolutionary - he brought knowledge about how to be a professional athlete to british football. He did a great job in segment 2 because he kept Arsenal in the top 4 while not spending money and being compelled to sell his best players. Hopefully segment 3 will be glossed over (though remembering that he actually won 3 FA cups in this period).

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2018, 06:32:05 pm »
Clearly he helped raise the standards of the English game

He may not have a trophy to celebrate that fact, but to influence the standards of a national game, whether on or off the field, is a huge achievement in itself.



Garry Broad

LEE

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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2018, 07:26:54 pm »
Clearly he helped raise the standards of the English game

He may not have a trophy to celebrate that fact, but to influence the standards of a national game, whether on or off the field, is a huge achievement in itself.

Absolutely, but maybe I should clarify.  He helped raise the standards of the game played in the English Premier League. 
He did very little to help actual English players and was, i think, the first manager to field a side devoid of English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish players. 
Everyone has since followed suit* to the detriment of the National team.

*Not sure how many sides have been 100% "foreign" though.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

citoyen

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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2018, 10:39:29 am »
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.

I heard a rumour that Brendan Rodgers is a contender to replace him. That would tick that box.

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2018, 01:53:59 pm »
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.

I heard a rumour that Brendan Rodgers is a contender to replace him. That would tick that box.
I think his reputation has been tarnished somewhat unfairly by the last year and a bit at Liverpool. I hope he gets another chance somewhere he can realistically challenge for things.

Jaded

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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2018, 02:10:21 pm »
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.

I heard a rumour that Brendan Rodgers is a contender to replace him. That would tick that box.
I think his reputation has been tarnished somewhat unfairly by the last year and a bit at Liverpool. I hope he gets another chance somewhere he can realistically challenge for things.

Lets add that his reputation was tarnished in the way he left his first management job and went to Reading.
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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2018, 02:30:52 pm »
I doubt that they will have any difficulty recruiting a total arse though.

I heard a rumour that Brendan Rodgers is a contender to replace him. That would tick that box.
I think his reputation has been tarnished somewhat unfairly by the last year and a bit at Liverpool. I hope he gets another chance somewhere he can realistically challenge for things.

Lets add that his reputation was tarnished in the way he left his first management job and went to Reading.
Managers (like footballers) move clubs. I don't know the specifics of the Watford departure, and it clearly left a sour taste for Watford, but I doubt there are many players or managers in the top flight who have left all their prior clubs with nothing but goodwill.

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2018, 07:08:17 pm »
Clearly he helped raise the standards of the English game

He may not have a trophy to celebrate that fact, but to influence the standards of a national game, whether on or off the field, is a huge achievement in itself.

He did very little to help actual English players and was, i think, the first manager to field a side devoid of English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish players. 

He played UK players when he thought they were good enough, which unfortunately was all too infrequent - just like every other club/manger in the Premiership was doing at the time and has done ever since. The trend to include talented [and actually cheaper] foreign players started long before Wenger arrived. You've only got to look at the style of team Glenn Hoddle was starting to get together at Chelsea to see that.

Listening to Martin Keown on Five Live the other day - he was saying that when Wenger arrived they had no idea who he was. And he changed everything over night according to Keown, their approach to training, dietry habits etc and they soon realized the ship had very much changed direction big time.
Garry Broad

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2018, 09:53:49 pm »
Yes, the foreign thing isn't down to Wenger alone.  I think he must have arrived at Wengeral in about 1996.  Manchester United won the championship in 1996-7 and four of their main players stand out as being in the current tradition of foreign - Schmeichel, Cantona, Cruyff and Solskjaer - and that's in the team that had (and probably still has) the best youth set-up in the league.

LEE

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Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2018, 01:30:12 am »
Yes, the foreign thing isn't down to Wenger alone.  I think he must have arrived at Wengeral in about 1996.  Manchester United won the championship in 1996-7 and four of their main players stand out as being in the current tradition of foreign - Schmeichel, Cantona, Cruyff and Solskjaer - and that's in the team that had (and probably still has) the best youth set-up in the league.

I certainly wasn't implying Wenger invented the foreign player, just that he took it to the ultimate extreme.

Cruyff was never a "main player".  The other 3 were.  The majority of the squad that season were British isles/Irish.  That's quite a way from being 100% non-British/irish.

Denis Irwin
David May
Gary Neville
Phil Neville
Gary Paillister
David Beckham
Nicky Butt
Ryan Giggs
Roy Keane
Paul Scholes
Andy Cole
Brian Mclair

They were in the 96/97 squad (amongst several lesser known British/irish players).
Several were from within 20 minutes of Old Trafford and part of the previous season's "you'll never win anything with kids" Premiership winning side.

I can't see that happening again, winning the Premiership with such a proportion of local kids and home-grown talent.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2018, 08:21:19 am »
Oh, yes, it was certainly a great team and largely home grown, although Schmeichel and Cantona were hugely influential.  I say only, "Newcastle 5 - Manchester 0".  I can still remember listening to that in the shed - the shed only just survived.  In fact, that season, Manchester United picked up very few points against the three North-East teams and were even thrashed by Southampton 6 - 3.  But they still won the league by about 7 points.  A very good team.

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2018, 10:05:12 am »
That team was built during the era where you were only allowed 3 non-English players in european matches. Wenger's arrival co-incided with that rule being abolished (and also with the start of the Premier League's spending power increase, meaning many PL clubs could compete with european giants on wages).

Re: Arsene Wenger
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2018, 10:39:14 am »
The £ was worth about 50% more in the early 2000s against the Euro, which had the effect of pulling in a generation of talented French players.