Author Topic: Di2 Failure mode  (Read 18385 times)

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2018, 01:59:07 pm »
Don't buy it then.

Simples.

well indeed. There is very little danger of me doing that! ;D

cheers

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2018, 02:35:49 pm »
By coincidence, I was talking to a Shimano mechanic this morning about Di2. He mentioned a customer with Parkinson's who has benefitted greatly from having Di2 - much easier to operate with limited hand function.

Admittedly something of a special case but none the less an interesting example of the genuine benefits of the technology - for some riders.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 03:08:15 pm »

Quote
...that is a delight to use not least because it require little physical effort.

To my surprise, one of the most annoyingly fatigued parts of my body on a hilly 1000k was my hands from constantly operating the 'positive' action of Campag ergos.

I think that's one of the best reasons to use it.  I like MTB thumb shifters, but I do get thumb pain from their prolonged use.  Avoidable with different types of shifter, but they have other compromises.
Are we back to DownTube Shifters?? (which I find take less effort than either my Shimano or Campag integrated shifters).
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 03:24:55 pm »
The lack of somewhere to shove an allen key and twiddle it to your single-speed gear of choice seems like a serious omission.

...or maybe a cable, running from the mech, up through the frame, to an indexed lever, mounted on the handlebars.

My mates love Di shifting so it's best if I never try it.

My cable snapped on PBP ride home.  I frigged it into single-speed gear of choice at the back which gave me a double speed using front derailleur.  Since I'd been mostly riding single-speed all year it was actually quite a luxury. (Good reason to ride single -speed is that there's no panic when your gears stop working correctly...it's just normality being resumed).
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2018, 06:05:05 pm »
Pneumatic tyres cause punctures, why not use solid tyres? 

ISTR the mechanics' reports from the last two LELs were basically that the only people who'd had flat DI2 batteries were the ones who'd not bothered to charge them before the off - which goes beyond poor maintenance into sheer stupidity. 

Going to another niche use that is still probably bigger than the LEL niche use, the mechanical 'back to zero' Campag shifters on my TT bike chew up cable much faster than any other shifters I've used.  I discovered this soon after replacing a cable, ten miles into a 12 hour TT.  The next 249 miles were done on a singlespeed, and I narrowly missed both 260 miles and my 261.5 mile club record :(  I'm still using those shifters, with an accelerated maintenance schedule, but the next groupset I buy for that bike will almost certainly be electronic, and probably wireless. 

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2018, 07:00:01 pm »
The obvious answer is to go fixed wheel.

A freewheel is too much risk, what if the pawls stuck?

Too much risk of a chain snapping or falling off. No, Ordinary is the only way to go (with a decent set of lo-loaders  ??? ) 8)

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2018, 09:41:32 pm »
I think it depends what we mean by failure.  A flat battery on Di2 will firstly put the FD into the inner chain ring and then put all the power to the rear derailleur.  After that I think it stops in the middle of the cassette.  So essentially a flat battery puts you in a reasonable single speed get you home position.

Crash protection is just that and will prevent you from getting a twisted hanger if at all possible and is easily reset.

The USB cable to charge the battery weighs less than peanuts and can be charged on the go from an igaro or a cache battery without any problem.

If you have not fitted your wires properly then you cannot be trusted with ordinary cables and adjusting an RD. 

I have  1 fixed gear, 1 cable TT, 1 Di2 and a track bike.  They are all great (and I have rebuilt them all) but the Di2 needs no adjustment, the occasional top up and just works, wet or dry, clean or dirty, it just works.





Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2018, 06:21:04 am »
.

Let's say my right shifter failed with Di2. I'd use the Shimano app to reconfigure the left shifter to do everything.

Is that serious? Can you actually do that? If so, how?

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2018, 08:04:48 am »
Is that serious? Can you actually do that? If so, how?

If you have a Di2 Bluetooth module somewhere on your bike you can use the phone app to assign any button to any function. And with the newest firmware the front mech can be shifted automatically from the rear mech buttons, so you only need two working buttons to control everything.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2018, 09:17:41 am »
Just as an observation; both Nibali and ( until he recently retired) Contador had the choice of what system to use and stayed resolutely with mechanical gear systems. Sagan used mechanical for Paris Roubaix.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2018, 09:22:59 am »
Cancellara used mechanical only too. On the other hand, pro riders are basically technophobes - how many complain about the use of power meters? I don't think their situation with mechanics on hand and prepared bikes matches that of a normal rider.
I'd like to try Di2, but it needs to come down to 105 level before it becomes affordable for me.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2018, 09:31:13 am »
Let's put this into context. Contador and Nibali are/were two of the top5 riders in the world. They relied on winning races. It was crucial to their livelihoods.

If your average di2 punter breaks down on the Sunday club run, 15 miles from home, what is the fallout for them?

Let's be sensible about this.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2018, 09:56:03 am »
Is that serious? Can you actually do that? If so, how?

If you have a Di2 Bluetooth module somewhere on your bike you can use the phone app to assign any button to any function. And with the newest firmware the front mech can be shifted automatically from the rear mech buttons, so you only need two working buttons to control everything.

The latest generations of Dura-Ace and Ultegra Di2 have this built in. Older Di2 can be upgraded with the new battery to add this function.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2018, 09:57:52 am »
Pros have the advantage of having a mechanic on hand to check over the bike after every race and can adjust, lube or swap everything necessary. Plus they have multiple bikes.

An amateur has to put up with one bike that likely receives minimal attention. A system that stays in adjustment longer and has fewer finicky moving parts seems a much better fit.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2018, 10:05:30 am »
some pro riders have enough clout to choose exactly what they ride, but others have no choice; the whole sport is basically funded by the riders being mobile advertising hoardings and that extends to their bikes too.

 The average domestique who has a bike problem of any kind in the peloton just drops back to the team car and gets another bike; the consequences of the gears going peculiar (which is fairly commonplace, it seems) are minimal for these riders.

Top teams usually have some kind sponsorship deal for every piece of equipment they use, whereas lesser teams might get framesets as part of a sponsorship deal but often have to spend cash on their groupsets. The manufacturers can skew the equipment choices of these teams by offering special deals on products they wish to push.

'Riding what the pros ride' can mean that the team has chosen what they think is 'the best' and that they have paid the going rate for it, but it is at least as likely that they are basically being paid (one way or another) to ride it.

cheers

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2018, 10:27:35 am »
Which is another way of saying that what the pros ride is largely irrelevant to most cyclists.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2018, 10:52:20 am »
Which is another way of saying that what the pros ride is largely irrelevant to most cyclists.

or at least not as relevant as you might at first expect, for reasons that you might not at first guess, I suppose...

Interestingly both shimano and campag are effectively continuing to 'hedge  their bets' in that they are continuing with both mechanical and electronic shifting, as well as disc and rim brakes.  When they have come out with new stuff in the past, they have not always done this; the new stuff was 'just better' and the alternative option was soon discontinued in the top end groupsets.  Whether this is tacit admission that some options are not 'just better' or that there are markets that require different options I'm not sure.

However there is a clue in the way the choices are structured;  I recently visited the campag website for the first time in a while and I noted that the home page had four choices on it, being various combinations of disc/rim brake and electronic/mechanical shifting, almost as if they expected a potential customer to have already made their mind up about these things before deciding which level of groupset to aim at.

cheers

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2018, 11:05:50 am »
There is a huge price differential of mech/elec.
Elec is most definitely a luxury choice.

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2018, 11:07:33 am »
Is that serious? Can you actually do that? If so, how?

If you have a Di2 Bluetooth module somewhere on your bike you can use the phone app to assign any button to any function. And with the newest firmware the front mech can be shifted automatically from the rear mech buttons, so you only need two working buttons to control everything.

The latest generations of Dura-Ace and Ultegra Di2 have this built in. Older Di2 can be upgraded with the new battery to add this function.

Interesting, thanks both.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2018, 11:12:37 am »

Thank you everyone for your replies, lots of interesting stuff has been posted in this thread.

If I had only the classic shifter on each brake lever, like you have on a mechanical groupset, then I think I wouldn't even be thinking of going electric. But as I am spending more and more time on my aero bars, the idea of being able to add satellite shifters is very appealing. Adding an extra pair (or pair of pair) of shifters, does remove the issue with "what if the my primary shifters fail". You can't have multiple indexed shifters for the same set of gears with mechanical cables.

So based on the answers people have given in this thread it seems primary failure modes can consist of (but are not limited to)

- Dead battery - Keep it charged, problem solved. Long trip, carry charger
- Broken cable - It appears that the general consensus is that the cables are not as durable as they could be, carrying spares, and having the wherewithall to perhaps replum the wiring at the road side can mitigate this slightly. I'm looking at Di2 for an S&S coupled bike, which makes the internal routing thing slightly more interesting, but also more accessible.
- Crash protection mode - Knowing it exists and how to get out of it, solved.
- Total device failure - Well this can happen to a mechanical unit, tho admittedly the electronic one is more complex and thus does have an opportunity fail in ways you may not be used to.

Now in all this there comes the question "What do the pros use?" Well that's an interesting one. Cos there is an assumption that I'm a roadie... The riders who inspire me (tho I won't go so far as to say I want to copy them, be them, or emulate them, but they do inspire me), are not riders who ride primarily in events run under UCI rules... So it doesn't really interest me what nibali or contador used. What I do know is that James used Di2 to win the TCR last year. Sarah seemed to be using mechanical on her IPWR attempt. Kristoff also seems to be mechanical, as does Emily. With the exception of Emily, I can't find any detail on the reasoning of each of those riders for choosing one over the other. Given that AFAIK, most of those named are buying, or at least actively choosing their bike components, I wonder how much cost is a factor. If they had a choice between di2 and mechanical, for the same price, which would they choose?

Anyway, thank you everyone for your input. It's given me much to think about. I've got a couple of months before the frame is finished and I need to decide for certain where to put my money.

Thanks

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2018, 11:15:52 am »
Is that serious? Can you actually do that? If so, how?

If you have a Di2 Bluetooth module somewhere on your bike you can use the phone app to assign any button to any function. And with the newest firmware the front mech can be shifted automatically from the rear mech buttons, so you only need two working buttons to control everything.

The latest generations of Dura-Ace and Ultegra Di2 have this built in. Older Di2 can be upgraded with the new battery to add this function.

I have R8070 Ultegra Di2 and it didn't come with the Bluetooth/ANT+ module. But this is just a small device (I was surprised how small) that can be placed anywhere in the system. You just need an additional e-tube wire and the nodule. Mine is next to the head tube before the wiring disappears inside the frame.

Useful features it gives:

 - configure set-up via an app, such as synchro-shift (automatic shifting of the front derailleur to change through the entire range using a single shifter), and telling it what size front and rear cogs are so it can pick the correct shift point
 - communication via ANT+ with Garmin - so I have battery level displayed, the Garmin warns me when next shift will shift the big ring, and the top buttons on the shifters scroll the display

There's probably a lot more.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2018, 11:30:45 am »
I have R8070 Ultegra Di2 and it didn't come with the Bluetooth/ANT+ module. But this is just a small device (I was surprised how small) that can be placed anywhere in the system. You just need an additional e-tube wire and the nodule. Mine is next to the head tube before the wiring disappears inside the frame.

Sorry, I wasn't clear - you need the new BT-DN110 battery to be able to customise your Di2 with features like Syncro Shift (older Di2 isn't customisable as the required firmware update won't work with the older battery, AIUI).

The EW-WU111 Bluetooth module allows you do so wirelessly via the E-tube app on your smartphone/tablet.

The latest Dura-Ace also has a hidden button in the hood of the left-hand shifter that allows it to connect wirelessly to ANT+ devices - so you can control your Garmin using your shifters! I'm sure we can all agree this is the kind of technological progress that will make our cycling lives immeasurably better in every respect. ;)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2018, 12:16:08 pm »
You can't have multiple indexed shifters for the same set of gears with mechanical cables.

Actually you can, but the relevant widget operates in a winner-takes-all manner; you can only pull *more* cable than the other shifter is holding, so some preparation would be required before moving between shifters.

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cables/jtek-doublecontrol-l/
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Samuel D

Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2018, 12:21:41 pm »
It may not be long before Garmin, Shimano, or someone else launches a standard wiring loom for bicycles with one centralised battery powering the GPS computer, derailleurs, nine shift buttons, power meter, DRLs, night lamps, plug-in video cameras, mobile phone charger, and all the other gizmos that cyclists increasingly cannot do without.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Di2 Failure mode
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2018, 12:34:07 pm »
It may not be long before Garmin, Shimano, or someone else launches a standard wiring loom for bicycles with one centralised battery powering the GPS computer, derailleurs, nine shift buttons, power meter, DRLs, night lamps, plug-in video cameras, mobile phone charger, and all the other gizmos that cyclists increasingly cannot do without.

Specifically designed such that one flat battery means everything stops working...

One thing that surprises me about di2, is that the charger is needed. Rather than just have a micro USB socket on the a junction box. There is a box of tricks that has a USB input and a proprietary input... most riders these days are carrying charging capability for various USB based devices (phone, wahoo, many lights etc...). But shimano have this extra box that is ended between the USB stuff and the di2. Feels like short sighted design...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/