Author Topic: Giro 2018  (Read 17208 times)

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #125 on: May 28, 2018, 09:30:03 am »
It is not surprising that a few major teams have pulled out of the MPCC. They see Team Sky shitting all over the race scene with Cortisone abuse and they realise that with that Team Sky have shot the MPCC down in flames.

They also see founder-members AG2R, whose boss, Vincent Lavenu, is one of the big cheeses in the organisation, having three riders banned for EPO use.  :facepalm:

There would most likely never have been a "jiffybag" because it is highly likely it contained Kenacort.

I don't think you do yourself any favours with this kind of comment because it's so easily dismissed as speculation. You can make a good case against Sky by sticking to the known and undisputed facts.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #126 on: May 28, 2018, 09:40:41 am »
It is obviously speculation. It is not being claimed as fact. We will most likely never know...because Sky "lost" the records when the only copy of records (apparently) went missing when Freeman's laptop was "stolen".

So where does that leave us? We can either accept the warm diahorrea spoon fed to us by Sky, or we can apply A bit of critical thought bearing in mind the context of bike racing. We can look at the trail of explanations from Team Sky that were revealed as lies and ask ourselves why they were lying.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #127 on: May 28, 2018, 09:46:31 am »
I think Sky have given us enough rope with the known facts, without the need to resort to speculation.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #128 on: May 28, 2018, 09:50:35 am »
Whatever was in the jiffy-bag, it wasn't within the doping regulations.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #129 on: May 28, 2018, 10:11:29 am »
I think Sky have given us enough rope with the known facts, without the need to resort to speculation.

That doesn't really make any sense at all. It is speculation that has caused the rope to be given. If there hadn't been speculation about possible contents of the jiffybag there would not have been any interest in pursuing the case. The 'jiffybag' leaker speculated as to the contents.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #130 on: May 28, 2018, 10:53:39 am »
I think Sky have given us enough rope with the known facts, without the need to resort to speculation.

That doesn't really make any sense at all. It is speculation that has caused the rope to be given. If there hadn't been speculation about possible contents of the jiffybag there would not have been any interest in pursuing the case. The 'jiffybag' leaker speculated as to the contents.

I’m not talking about the Jiffy bag. There are plenty of known facts unrelated to the Jiffy bag.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #131 on: May 28, 2018, 11:11:54 am »
Such as...

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #132 on: May 28, 2018, 12:18:20 pm »

Rather than the populist myth gained from 'the clinic'?

Except it is only 95% nonsense.

The remaining 5% is from a few posters with an encyclopaedic knowledge of racing and riders from decades,  and don't consider everything through the prism of doping.

Consider this post:

"Perhaps a better point to make would be that Team Sky stated their aim to have a British Tour de France winner within 5 years. At the start line of the Vuelta in 2011, Bradley Wiggins was a one-hit wonder and because of how early he'd crashed out of the Tour that year, we still did not know that he could be that. Geraint Thomas was still a northern classics contender and even with that, it's taken him until outside the original Team Sky 5 year time frame for him to develop his climbing to the extent that that could have been feasibly him. Peter Kennaugh was the name most often touted as the potential British Tour winner, thanks to his 2009 Girobio performance, but he was still far too raw at that point to know whether he could become one or not. His 5th place in the Tour de Pologne that year was his first promising sign at the pro level - a race where Froome was climbing with the sprinters. Froome had been mentioned by a few people as potentially having the level, but only in passing. Mainly because he hadn't even been the most promising young African climber on Barloworld, because John-Lee Augustyn had. And he didn't have a contract offer on the table, and was looking at domestique ProTour minimum wage with Garmin or Lampre, the two teams who had expressed an interest. He was a guy who could be an OK climbing helper or stagehunter, or could be taken on as a reclamation project. By not signing him up again until after that Vuelta, Sky lost a lot of money because his value went through the ceiling.

If, given their stated aim of a British Tour de France winner within five years, Sky had a rider who, albeit born and raised overseas, had the British flag next to his name, and had the talent to match the best times of the EPO generation and do it clean, why would they have been willing to let him go for peanuts to much lower budget teams, unless they were just as surprised by his sudden improvement as the rest of us?"

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #133 on: May 28, 2018, 01:32:40 pm »
So, Froome learned his cyclecraft riding on gravel roads, riding in the heat.

Then, on gravel roads, in the heat, he rides away from the peloton, and surprises people with his (relatively) fast descending skills on poor surfaces.

He even commented on it, how like the roads were to the ones he rode on when he was a teenager.

So why was he so fucking shit at bike handling until recently? He fell off going uphill in this Giro. It's just more PR bullshit.

Contador fell off going uphill in the TdF last year.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime


Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #135 on: May 28, 2018, 03:12:13 pm »
Again just conjectures and waffle. We need hard evidence from the tour organisers and testers.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #136 on: May 28, 2018, 03:21:43 pm »
Again just conjectures and waffle. We need hard evidence from the tour organisers and testers.

Bollocks. It's informed opinion from the best British Grand Tour climber before Froome.

"Hard evidence from the tour organisers"?  What evidence do you think they might posses and why on earth would they provide it? That you ask this speaks to your lack of understanding of the interests at play. The organisers paid €1.4M to Froome to ride the Giro. They are delighted with what he did. They didn't pay him €1.4M to do nothing or abandon. They emphatically do not want to expose him. Has any Tour organiser ever exposed doping?

Testers? They got him for Salbutamol, and he is currently doing his best to get off. Besides, the testers are two steps behind which is why the biggest busts have come via non-testing means.

Here are Phillips York's qualifications for saying what she said (including 3 Grand Tour 2nd places):

1976
1st Scottish Junior Road Race Championship
1978
 1st  Amateur National Road Race Championship
1st Overall Tour of the Peak
1st Scottish Hill-Climb Championship
2nd Overall Premier Calendar
1979
1st  Amateur National Road Race Championship
1st Overall Merlin Plage Trophy
1st Paris–Evreux
1st Overall Route de France (Under-23)
1st GP de la Ville de Lillers
1st GP de la Boucherie
4th Amateurs' road race, Road World Championships
1980
8th Overall Tour de Romandie
1981
5th Overall Tour de l'Aude
7th Overall Tour de Romandie
7th Overall Dauphiné Libéré
1982
2nd Overall Tour de l'Avenir
7th Overall Tour de Romandie
1983
1st Stage 10 Tour de France
3rd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1984
1st Stage 2 Tour de Romandie
2nd Overall Tour du Haut Var4th Overall Tour de France Mountains classification1st Stage 11
4th Overall Midi Libre1st Stage 4
5th Overall Tour de Romandie
6th Overall Paris–Nice
1st Stage 11
6th Road race, Road World Championships
7th Overall Volta a Catalunya
1985
1st  Overall Volta a Catalunya
2nd Overall Vuelta a España
3rd Giro del Piemonte
4th GP de Wallonie
6th Overall Paris–Nice
6th Overall Critérium International
7th Overall Tour du Haut Var
9th Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
10th Road race, Road World Championships
1986
2nd Overall Vuelta a España
1st Stage 6
2nd Overall Tour de Suisse
6th Overall Vuelta a Aragón
10th GP d'Isbergues
1987
2nd Overall Giro d'Italia Mountains classification
1st Stage 21
4th Overall Tour de Romandie
5th Liège–Bastogne–Liège
6th Overall Tour Mediterranean
7th Overall Catalan Week
1988
2nd Overall Bicicleta Vasca
3rd Overall Critérium International
3rd Liège–Bastogne–Liège
3rd Overall Route du Sud
6th Overall Vuelta a España
8th Overall Volta a Catalunya
9th Overall Paris–Nice
1989
1st  Overall Tour of Britain
3rd Overall Tour de Romandie
1st Stage 4
2nd Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 7
2nd GP de Wallonie
3rd Overall Tour de Romandie
7th GP Bessèges
8th Paris–Camembert
9th GP des Amériques
10th Tour de France
1st Stage 10
1990
1st  Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
1st Stage 4 Tour de Romandie
2nd Overall Tour de Suisse
2nd Overall Tour of Britain
4th GP Ouest-France
4th Giro di Lombardia
4th Tour of Andalucia
7th GP Rennes
9th Flèche Wallonne
1991
2nd Overall Tour de Romandie
2nd Classique des Alpes
4th Overall Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
4th Overall Tour of Britain
5th Grand Prix des Amériques
5th Overall Tour de Suisse
1st Stage 5
1992
6th Giro del Lazio
7th Giro del Piemonte
9th Overall Catalan Week
9th Liège–Bastogne–Liège
9th Overall Tour of Britain
1993
6th Overall Midi Libre
7th Overall Vuelta a Asturias
9th Classique des Alpes
1994
6th Coppa Placci
7th Coppa Sabatini
9th Overall Tour of Galicia
1995
National Road Race Championship
9th Classique des Alpes


Now let's see yours...

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #137 on: May 28, 2018, 04:18:33 pm »
I have taken a long time to come round to the Flatus view of things; it might well be said that he has still not managed to convince me but after the total of Froome's performances in this Giro it is the man in rose in Rome that has convinced me - "Unclean, unclean, my heart is telling me!" (and the flipside of the coin is that Yates has impressed me as probably clean!). I think we have seen enough examples of riders doping while at the same time testing clean for clean tests or giving logical scientific reasons for their out of limit results for me to make up my own mind, based on my own gut feeling (and others can come to their own conclusions, i have no intention to try to persuade them.
The length that the case is taking would seem completely normal to me. I can't think of a single case from Virenque onwards where the lawyers have not managed to spin things out over several years whenever they have got "stuck in". The lesser riders get a quick resolution but GT contenders have it otherwise. Not a good thing for cycling or for the UCI but good money for the lawyers! If the riders were really interested in their legacy and the image of the sport they would find a better way of doing things, but there we are, money speaks. (It could also be that a certain quantity of drug abuse affects the individual's capacity to make reasoned logical decisions; it's something that I am convinced was the case with Lance Armstrong).

I am not sure how much attention I will pay to the TdF - it might well depend on who isn't riding!

please don't ask me to listen to reason, reason means what the other bloke has to say!

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #138 on: May 28, 2018, 05:30:52 pm »
Just caught up with the highlights over lunch (after a jolly nice - if muggy - walk to the local Arts Week tea stops);


What about that Sam Bennett eh?  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #139 on: May 28, 2018, 06:09:58 pm »


Here are Phillipa York's qualifications for saying what she said (including 3 Grand Tour 2nd places):







You forgot the testosterone abuse case in 1992.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #140 on: May 28, 2018, 06:11:43 pm »
No I didn't, actually.

 But So what? What difference does that make? That is like trying to discredit Landis for shopping Armstrong, or criticising Leipheimer for saying that *Geert Leinders had done his blood doping.


*Geert Leinders...The doctor later employed by Team Sky as a 'consultant' after their disastrous debut in pro-cycling. As a complete coincidence once they employed him they started Winning.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #141 on: May 28, 2018, 06:20:58 pm »
Surely it makes for more of an informed opinion, and is therefore a useful attribute.

Quote
Robert Millar, a contemporary of Hinault's and a former Tour King of the Mountains, made the following observation in a column for Cyclingnews:

"The high-profile withdrawal of Laurent Jalabert is just one step of a necessary process which is going to hang heavily over this year's event and it doesn't matter if guys like Bernard Hinault stand up and say things have changed or not. That's exactly the kind of attitude that allowed the deceptions to continue for as long as they have."
Millar also acknowledged his role in those deceptions.

"I started writing my explanation (of my experience of doping) back in February and to my shame it has sat in a folder unfinished. I think I wanted it to be a story of sorts but I now know it doesn't need to be entertaining – facts, names and places will do.
"This latest affair has reminded me I really need to get on with it and send it to someone who I think will use it wisely. I'm not seeking to be a hero or a martyr for doing so . . . but if it helps understand why the culture got as bad as it did, or why Omerta dominated, then so be it."

It was a brave piece of writing and raised a question that Hinault, and many other gods in the sport have never addressed:

What has hurt cycling more? The doping or its denial?

https://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-no-escaping-the-shadow-29401215.html

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #142 on: May 28, 2018, 06:30:01 pm »
In that respect, yes, it does.

By the way, Geert Leinders, who doped Rabobank from 2002 to 2009 was recommended to team Sky by their own staff who were ex-Rabobank.

He's banned for life now. How unfortunate that Team Sky didn't know of his past before hiring him.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #143 on: May 28, 2018, 06:35:04 pm »
This thread appears to have turned into slagging off Froome and Team Sky rather than one about the Giro 2018.

Taking aside whether or not Froome, or indeed Team Sky, should have been riding, surely the performance of Froome was outstanding.  From being 4min 52sec down after stage 15 to winning by 46sec is simply unheard of in modern racing.  While he clawed some of the deficit back in the TT, his 80km attack will be the stuff of legend for years to come.  Perhaps we could acknowledge that achievement?

Does anyone believe Froome cheated in this year’s Giro?  Aside from the debate as to whether or not he should have been there, the fact is he was allowed to race and after a disastrous start he never gave up and made an audacious attack during which he made significant gains during descents while his main competitor, Dumoulin, later admitted he was waiting for support and expected Froome to crack.  Dumoulin lost the race on the descents that day and whatever you may believe in terms of PEDs, I don’t think there is any evidence to show they assist during descending!  Page 1 of this thread got it almost spot on when Flatus noted they were going up the Finestre and “It will be won or lost today. I think we may see a repeat of yesterday, with TD benefiting from Froome's attacks.”  It was won that day and Froome’s attack benefitted Froome in a manner we have not seen in years.  We are now onto page 6 with much of the discussion centred on an almost visceral hatred of Team Sky and Froome and reference to matters going back as far as 2011 that seem to have no bearing on this Giro.  A pity as it detracts from an incredible performance by Team Sky and Froome.

Arch critic of Team Sky and Froome, David Walsh, even appears to have changed his tune and heaped praise in The Sunday Times (27 May) on what Froome achieved.  He even went so far as to state “There is no evidence that Froome doped to deliver that scintillating performance on Friday and while many will be sceptical, there are also reasons for believing Froome is a unique athlete and one blessed with extraordinary toughness.  That means accepting that if there was something wrong at the Vuelta last year, it was a one off”.  It would appear Walsh sees nothing wrong with Froome in this Giro and also accepted his entitlement to ride the Giro 2018 as he makes no comment in that respect.

So why not drop the vitriol and axes, acknowledge what a superb Giro Froome and the whole of Team Sky have had, and wait for the outcome of something that shouldn’t have even been in the public domain as trial by public opinion is hardly the best way forward for anyone.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #144 on: May 28, 2018, 06:58:18 pm »
Fuck that.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #145 on: May 28, 2018, 07:04:23 pm »
Again just conjectures and waffle. We need hard evidence from the tour organisers and testers.

"I have never failed a doping test".

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #146 on: May 28, 2018, 07:11:16 pm »
Is there any concrete(ish) news/opinion on which results The FroomeDog will lose if he gets a ban for the Vuelta AAF? So far I've only heard big gallic shrugs  :-\

(assume for sake of argument that he's found guilty between now and the TdeF start!)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #147 on: May 28, 2018, 07:17:20 pm »
No is the short answer.
There is a longer answer, but no is quicker and just as informative.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #148 on: May 28, 2018, 07:30:55 pm »
Having anything concrete or concrete(ish) does not appear to deter posters on this thread from slagging Team Sky or Froome off!

There has been speculation any ban would take place from the date of test while other speculation suggets any ban from date of decision.  Team Sky and Froome appear to believe they will show that Froome and Team Sky did nothing wrong.  Perhaps they hope to show the test was not fit for purpose, assumptions on how substance is 'processed' in body is incorrect or something that questions the results.  The public will have to wait and see and may never find out as presumably UCI will either confirm a ban or state there is no case to answer without giving reasons.

Either way, this does not detract from the performance of Froome and what even critics like David Walsh admits was scintillating.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #149 on: May 28, 2018, 07:36:37 pm »
Landis did a spectacular ride but he cheated and it doesn't count.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...