Author Topic: Giro 2018  (Read 17234 times)

mattc

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #250 on: May 31, 2018, 12:45:33 pm »
...
 attempts to claim that people dislike Froome because he rides with his elbows pointing out. The reporter should speak for himself only. Most people who doubt Froome do so based on a rational examination of whether his sudden leap in performance in 2011 has an explanation that doesn't involve doping.
He gives really vacuous interviews too!

<sigh>
Anyway ... we have another noise-to-signal ratio problem here. Across the internet there are a HELL of a lot of people criticising Froome on spurious grounds - his dodgy elbows, being a fake Brit (i.e. Kenyan-born), being better than other (presumably clean) riders, riding for a team that made spurious claims .... Then add in the all "no smoke without fire" bollox. And there are still people timing climbs on the telly and leaping to conclusions.

The sum total of all this noise can make me almost sympathetic to Froome - I tend to dig my heels in and promote the "innocent until proven otherwise" stance even more. There was just as much noise from the anti-Wiggo camp - who are mostly the same people, despite Sir Brad's career and circumstances being very different, and having not one AAF against him.

I also wish we could have a decent chat/debate/argument about pro racing without 90% of the posts being about Sky cheats. We KNOW you think they're dirty cheats, can we just park it for a few weeks??  ::-)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #251 on: May 31, 2018, 12:47:28 pm »
We KNOW you think he's innocent.

Why don't you park it?

mattc

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #252 on: May 31, 2018, 01:09:58 pm »
We KNOW you think he's innocent.

Why don't you park it?

- I didn't say that! :)

- I've parked it quite happily, thanks - but you insist on driving into it and dragging the whole issue up again. On every cycling thread!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #253 on: May 31, 2018, 01:20:22 pm »
Every cycling thread being  2.  ::-)

Besides, I know you like to stalk me here, but if you look closely you will see there are many people talking on this thread. Have a look and see what they are talking about.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #254 on: May 31, 2018, 01:23:15 pm »
How do Froome's times on the climbs in this Giro compare with previous riders' times ?
Rust never sleeps

mattc

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #255 on: May 31, 2018, 01:29:41 pm »
Besides, I know you like to stalk me here,
As you well know, there is plenty of evidence of the reverse behaviour  :-*

Quote
but if you look closely you will see there are many people talking on this thread. Have a look and see what they are talking about.
Perhaps I was not clear - I am NOT singling out the Great Flatus for banging on about Sky Cheats. I'm well aware it's a hot topic for thousands of internet cycling "enthusiasts". But it's like smoking, or racists, or helmet discussions ... just because there's a lot of you, that doesn't make you popular. It just makes you harder to ignore.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

spesh

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #256 on: May 31, 2018, 01:32:21 pm »
How do Froome's times on the climbs in this Giro compare with previous riders' times ?

Covered this over 200 posts ago:

... for all that Sky drilled it at the bottom of Finestre, Froome's ascent of the col was by no means the fastest. Carapaz was 20 seconds quicker than Froome up the final climb, albeit 3 minutes slower than Santambrogio and Nibali in 2014, in far worse weather conditions.

https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=13092276&start=1120#p20351339
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #257 on: May 31, 2018, 01:34:56 pm »
Haven't got times to hand but from memory nothing outrageous, certainly in comparison to some of his earlier races (Ventoux 2013 springs to mind)

Of course, comparing climb times is problematic because the same climb may appear in different years but at a different point in a stage or indeed in the race. There may be different tactics at play and differing priorities. Certainly in this Giro, even with his Stage 19 attack, Froome's cycling is not as out there as in the past. There are plausible explanations for his ability to gap Dumoulin. What is unusual is his resurrection from the dead as highlighted by Phillipa York.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #258 on: May 31, 2018, 01:43:10 pm »
You'd expect Finistre to be slow given the conditions of the surface this year, ISTR Zoncolan was fast but ICBW. Second fastest Giro ever, not that you can put much store in times and speeds, after all LBL has more elevation than any stage in this year's Giro.

Karla

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #259 on: May 31, 2018, 03:24:34 pm »
Besides, I know you like to stalk me here,
As you well know, there is plenty of evidence of the reverse behaviour  :-*

You two are so sweet  :thumbsup:

mattc

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #260 on: May 31, 2018, 04:02:14 pm »
Besides, I know you like to stalk me here,
As you well know, there is plenty of evidence of the reverse behaviour  :-*

You two are so sweet  :thumbsup:
Don't worry K, I'm sure you'll find your own special forum someone one day  :)


So while I'm ranting about people ranting about cheats ...

It's not that I think all riders are clean. Or that cheating isn't important. Or that Team Sky riders will never get caught out, so we may as well accept they are "officially" clean:
the trouble is that we are all speculating about these cases. You have the uncertainties of the science, plus the uncertainties of the treatment/training regimes, and then the subjectivity of the officials in the sport; Froome might get away with all this, and Wiggo might get found out and all his wins deleted from history. Yates might get banned next week. And we can't control it.

So until actual verdicts are reached in these cases, I view it as a fairly tedious side-show. It's like arguing about whether Cliff Richard* will be found guilty of <whatever>, or which rider has the most unpleasant wife based on what we see in public.


*Insert latest celeb to be entwined in some scandal of massive "public interest".
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #261 on: May 31, 2018, 04:09:41 pm »
So until actual verdicts are reached in these cases, I view it as a fairly tedious side-show.

I dunno about that, it can be pretty entertaining, where else do you see folk trying to work out the size of a cow from the size of a steak?

LEE

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #262 on: May 31, 2018, 04:14:21 pm »
It's like arguing about whether Cliff Richard* will be found guilty of <whatever>

<Mistletoe and Wine>
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #263 on: May 31, 2018, 06:07:54 pm »
bla bla bla doping bla bla

I leave the thread alone for 5 hours and come back to find you are still going on about doping  ::-)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #264 on: May 31, 2018, 07:29:44 pm »
Let's be clear, I'm not talking about Salbutamol. This is a red herring and from what I've read about the substance it does not account for Froome's unbelievable transformation.  Which brings me to my final point. The reporter in this podcast attempts to claim that people dislike Froome because he rides with his elbows pointing out. The reporter should speak for himself only. Most people who doubt Froome do so based on a rational examination of whether his sudden leap in performance in 2011 has an explanation that doesn't involve doping.

Must be the exposure to radiation explanation.  British Cycling probably early adopter of technique and gains by track cyclist resulting in the 'medal machine' they generated was used to transform Froome.  Much more believable than diagnosing and treating some parasite inside Froome.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #265 on: May 31, 2018, 07:30:48 pm »
I dunno about that, it can be pretty entertaining, where else do you see folk trying to work out the size of a cow from the size of a steak?

Excellent summary of some posts on this thread!

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #266 on: May 31, 2018, 07:31:10 pm »
The Veloman sockpuppet troll is back.


Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #267 on: May 31, 2018, 07:35:22 pm »
Of course, comparing climb times is problematic because the same climb may appear in different years but at a different point in a stage or indeed in the race. There may be different tactics at play and differing priorities. Certainly in this Giro, even with his Stage 19 attack, Froome's cycling is not as out there as in the past. There are plausible explanations for his ability to gap Dumoulin. What is unusual is his resurrection from the dead as highlighted by Phillipa York.

Resurrection from the dead?

I would agree he was down and many thought he was out in terms of podium, but he was definitely not out of the race as he was still riding.  Stages show how he benefitted from terrain that suited him while Yates completely imploded and Dumoulin got the tactics wrong.

Stage 14.  Froome wins on Zoncolan with Yates only 6s behind and Dumoulin 37s behind.  Froome in 5th position 3m10s off lead of Yates and Dumoulin 1m24s behind Yates.  So although a good win for Froome, still significant time differences between podium spots.

Stage 15.  Bad day for Froome as Yates surges to win and finishes 1m32s ahead of Froome who also finishes 51s behind Dumoulin and other GC contenders.  Overall, Froome’s deficit increases to 4m52s on Yates and 2m41s on Dumoulin.  Fortunately for Froome a rest day awaits.

Stage 16.  TT day.  Froome loses 13s to Dumoulin and Yates does enough to stay in pink while losing time to both.  Race appears to be between Yates and Dumoulin as Froome 3m50s behind Yates and 2m54s behind Dumoulin.

Stage 17/18.  Sprint stages with Froome and others managing to stay upright and free from any mechanicals so no time changes.

Stage 19.  Boom!  Yates completely implodes.  Froome attacks from way off the finish in a never been seen before tactic by him.  Dumoulin gets his tactics completely wrong and allows Froome to escape, particularly on the descents, and Froome finishes 40s ahead of Dumoulin with the help of 10s win bonus and 3s intermediate sprint bonus.  In reality he turned a 2m54s deficit into a 27s lead that was increased to 40s by time bonuses.  Very large chunk of that time was gained on descents while Dumoulin was descending with someone he described as descending “like an old lady”.  The official time gap reported between Froome and Dumoulin was 3m10s excluding time bonuses and hardly a ‘Landis’ performance.

Stage 20.  Dumoulin failed to break Froome who even managed to gain another 6s on him with a late surge by which time Dumoulin had no interest in racing him and conceded.

This is hardly resurrection from the dead stuff, more a comeback based on a good performance in a TT, which is no surprise as we all know he can TT, and a scintillating performance on a mountain day when the leader completely imploded and the next hopeful got the tactics wrong and allowed Froome to stay away.  Most definitely a remarkable comeback after being written off, but reversal in fortunes can be explained without any reference to PEDs, cheating, unethical behaviour etc.  Froome did change his saddle as he was suffering from saddle sores and instead of the Fizik that Sky use he swapped it for a Specialized saddle with the name covered.  Eagle eyed reporters did notice that.  Not the first time such things have happened in cycling and will not be the last.  He also had very good support from the non-riding team in terms of replenishment that must have been pre-planned.

Pippa York has previously criticised Froome so no surprise there regarding current comments.  Can’t wait for the book about all the cheating that was involved in generating that palmarés for York.  Still under consideration apparently.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #268 on: May 31, 2018, 07:43:52 pm »
^
Veloman sockpuppet troll post.

Why not just log in with your Veloman account and post? Why the dishonesty?

vorsprung

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Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #269 on: May 31, 2018, 08:15:45 pm »
Audaxing Blog follow @vorsprungbike on

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #270 on: May 31, 2018, 10:09:48 pm »
^
Veloman sockpuppet troll post.

Why not just log in with your Veloman account and post? Why the dishonesty?

I thought you played the ball, not the man Flatus ?  Every post he makes you slag off because of who its from.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #271 on: May 31, 2018, 10:16:43 pm »
^
Veloman sockpuppet troll post.

Why not just log in with your Veloman account and post? Why the dishonesty?

I thought you played the ball, not the man Flatus ?  Every post he makes you slag off because of who its from.

No, I'm not slagging him off. There are no personal comments made by me. I'm pointing out a forum member has created a sockpuppet account.  On some forums creating a sockpuppet account results in a permanent ban of all accounts associated with the IP address.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #272 on: May 31, 2018, 10:30:29 pm »
Maybe Froome got a TUE because of the saddle sore, nobody will ever know because it's all done in secret.

In any case, maybe the legal doping (TUEs, Salbutamol etc) is a red herring to cover up the real doping which involve undetectable substances and methods.

Robert S. Thorn

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #273 on: May 31, 2018, 10:36:01 pm »
I think personally that Froome's stage 19 has been overhyped simply because of how stage 19 destroyed Yates.  Compare Froome's ride to other riders such as Dumoulin and with historical similar days and it's really not exceptional.

I don't know if Froome, Dumoulin, Yates or any other pro rider is doping or cheating in any way but I do know that Froome pulled out a mammoth effort on stage 19 and backed it up on stage 20 and that is to be admired in my book until proven otherwise. 

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #274 on: May 31, 2018, 10:49:39 pm »
I can see how Froome is a bit of a nightmare if you're a right-on public sector worker. What with him going to a posh private school in South Africa, being a self-employed sub-contractor to the Murdoch empire, and pushing the envelope of the rules for his win bonus. Couple that with a belief that sport should exhibit 'fairness' and it's all negative.

Turn those ideas on their head, and you can see how he's a poster boy for the 'cycling is the new golf' boys and girls in the City.

I'm all in favour of a bit of tension between different worldviews, and I would imagine the journalists are like pigs in shit. Roll on the Tour.