Author Topic: Giro 2018  (Read 17096 times)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #275 on: May 31, 2018, 10:55:56 pm »
I don't understand the "innocent until proven guilty" comments given that doping is so ingrained in cycling and for so long. Or is it "they all dope so the best still win"?




Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #276 on: May 31, 2018, 11:16:36 pm »
^
Veloman sockpuppet troll post.

Why not just log in with your Veloman account and post? Why the dishonesty?

I thought you played the ball, not the man Flatus ?  Every post he makes you slag off because of who its from.

No, I'm not slagging him off. There are no personal comments made by me. I'm pointing out a forum member has created a sockpuppet account.  On some forums creating a sockpuppet account results in a permanent ban of all accounts associated with the IP address.

Nothing personal, ever.  Well maybe:

I ridicule who rock up not knowing what they are talking about.

...... That pompous, tedious and self-opiniated tone,  whilst curiously uniformed and unable to think beyond two dimensions.

Bit of a pattern emerges from other threads where comments are not solely concentrated on the debate/argument.

Anyway, the Giro 2018 has finished and apparently life goes on.

What is the next race to consider and will there be a dedicated thread for it?

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #277 on: May 31, 2018, 11:23:28 pm »
So. Why the sockpuppet, Veloman?

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #278 on: June 01, 2018, 07:44:46 am »
I don't understand the "innocent until proven guilty" comments given that doping is so ingrained in cycling and for so long. Or is it "they all dope so the best still win"?


Not quite so simple I’m afraid. The best clean athlete may not be the best doped athlete, as responses to doping are different in the same way to response to different training loads is different. In general a ‘good’ doper will have an advantage over a ‘good’ clean athlete, if only because they can train more and harder and still recover. Through in some oxygen vector doping and some of the new stuff and the playing field is not level.

So in a doped field you’re probably measuring response rates and the effectiveness of the doping/training regime and in a clean field the underlying genetic ability/resilience and the effectiveness of the training regime.

I don’t pretend to know the prevalence of doping in cycling today - it may be lower than in many other sports (athletics and various forms of ‘football’ spring to mind), but even that is a bit misleading an idea. There are all sorts of approaches adopted at elite level that might be thought of as blurring the boundaries. Even something as simple as diet - we’re not about to prescribe a standard (country of origin based?) based diet for all elite athletes are we?

Mike

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #279 on: June 01, 2018, 07:51:36 am »
Armstrong was innocent until 2012. By which time he had been retired for a couple of years. If he hadn't staged a comeback in 2009, he would most likely still be innocent.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #280 on: June 01, 2018, 07:52:31 am »
What about that Sam Bennett eh?  :thumbsup:
Yup, he had some cracking wins, didn't he.

Is he riding the Tour?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #281 on: June 01, 2018, 07:54:04 am »
What about that Sam Bennett eh?  :thumbsup:
Yup, he had some cracking wins, didn't he.

Is he riding the Tour?

I'm sure you'll be along to answer that soon.

Everybody else just wants to talk about drugs  ;D

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #282 on: June 01, 2018, 08:06:36 am »
I don't understand the "innocent until proven guilty" comments given that doping is so ingrained in cycling and for so long. Or is it "they all dope so the best still win"?

You need to bear in mind the 2 uses of "innocence":

The legal, as in

Quote
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11, states: "Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.".


and the more general meanings:
Quote
innocence
ˈɪnəsəns/Submit
noun
the state, quality, or fact of being innocent of a crime or offence.
"they must prove their innocence"
synonyms:   guiltlessness, blamelessness, freedom from guilt, freedom from blame, irreproachability, clean hands
"the accused protested his innocence"
lack of guile or corruption; purity.
"the healthy bloom in her cheeks gave her an aura of innocence"
synonyms:   harmlessness, innocuousness, lack of malice, inoffensiveness
"they questioned the innocence of our motives"
euphemistic
a person's virginity.
"all the boys lost their innocence with her"
synonyms:   virginity, chastity, chasteness, purity, lack of sin, sinlessness, impeccability, spotlessness;

To pursue this, you need to consider sporting "laws" to be comparable to others; of course they're not identical, but in the 21stC that is broadly how things work.


So - for example - I'm not saying Froome has commited no crimes, or doping offences, or broken any cycling "laws" (and I'm not saying he is a virgin); I am saying that he is innocent of crimes as defined by the rules of pro-cycling i.e. no infractions have been proven.

It may well be that 98% of pros have broken anti-doping rules; but are still innocent in the legal/technical sense. (or in other words - they haven't been caught!)

Clear?? :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Robert S. Thorn

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #283 on: June 01, 2018, 08:18:01 am »
And of course there is the inevitable hyped up and over zealous reaction of both the media and the losers in anything that in some way the winner(s) must have cheated.  It's what makes social media buzz, what pays journos excessive amounts of money, what keeps Murdoch rich, etc.


Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #284 on: June 01, 2018, 09:05:12 am »
And of course there is the inevitable hyped up and over zealous reaction of both the media and the losers in anything that in some way the winner(s) must have cheated.  It's what makes social media buzz, what pays journos excessive amounts of money, what keeps Murdoch rich, etc.

So can you give me examples of when there has been "inevitable hyped up and over zealous reaction of both the media and the losers in anything that in some way the winner(s) must have cheated" when other people have won Grand Tours over the last 5 years?

To help you out, Giro: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 (Nibali x2,  Contador, Quintana, Dumoulin.

Vuelta: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 (Horner, Aru, Contador, Quintana)

Tour Dr France: 2014 (Nibali.)

There is only one, Horner's Vuelta win, and even then it was low key compared to the reaction to Froome.

So what you cite as "inevitable", isn't actually. But it does pose an interesting question as to why it happens every time Froome wins. Why do you think that is?

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #285 on: June 01, 2018, 09:36:56 am »
What about that Sam Bennett eh?  :thumbsup:
Yup, he had some cracking wins, didn't he.

Is he riding the Tour?
I doubt they'll take him and Sagan to the Tour.
All the big sprint guys seemed to be at the Tour of California (Kittel, Gaviria, Sagan, Cav, Greipel?). It seems like the Giro got the next level down (Viviani, Bennet, Modolo etc) - I  reckon it's because the mountains were so hard that getting over them would impact on Tour form.
It's interesting how the Giro and the Vuelta are not attracting the top sprinters - too many mountain top finishes?

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #286 on: June 01, 2018, 09:40:40 am »
What about that Sam Bennett eh?  :thumbsup:
Yup, he had some cracking wins, didn't he.

Is he riding the Tour?
I doubt they'll take him and Sagan to the Tour.
All the big sprint guys seemed to be at the Tour of California (Kittel, Gaviria, Sagan, Cav, Greipel?). It seems like the Giro got the next level down (Viviani, Bennet, Modolo etc) - I  reckon it's because the mountains were so hard that getting over them would impact on Tour form.
It's interesting how the Giro and the Vuelta are not attracting the top sprinters - too many mountain top finishes?

Cavendish railed against Giro and Vuelta organisers for making their tours sprinters unfriendly.

Robert S. Thorn

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #287 on: June 01, 2018, 10:01:00 am »
And of course there is the inevitable hyped up and over zealous reaction of both the media and the losers in anything that in some way the winner(s) must have cheated.  It's what makes social media buzz, what pays journos excessive amounts of money, what keeps Murdoch rich, etc.

So can you give me examples of when there has been "inevitable hyped up and over zealous reaction of both the media and the losers in anything that in some way the winner(s) must have cheated" when other people have won Grand Tours over the last 5 years?

To help you out, Giro: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 (Nibali x2,  Contador, Quintana, Dumoulin.

Vuelta: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 (Horner, Aru, Contador, Quintana)

Tour Dr France: 2014 (Nibali.)

There is only one, Horner's Vuelta win, and even then it was low key compared to the reaction to Froome.

So what you cite as "inevitable", isn't actually. But it does pose an interesting question as to why it happens every time Froome wins. Why do you think that is?

It's not necessary for me to list them as a simple google search will reveal page after page after page of allegations of cheating.  It spreads of course in it's outrage to all sports, the Bolt / Gatlin issue immediately springs to mind.  Even the likes of Paula Radcliffe have been accused of cheating by those that could not best her.

For whatever reason people seem determined to out Froome as a cheat.  He may well be a cheat but I don't subscribe to trial by outrage.  What really bothers me is whilst one person becomes the public target others possibly have a greater chance of avoiding detection as the resources for monitoring and testing are finite.  Once the spotlight shines it is almost inevitable that resources become focused.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #288 on: June 01, 2018, 10:05:57 am »
In which case  you'll be able to provide some links to back up your claims, within cycling. Start by newspaper articles and mainstream cycling websites (cyclingnews, velonews, Cyclingtips etc). Or perhaps key figures such as Hinault, Lemond etc calling riders into question. Or maybe even Tour organisers.

Random forum posts are neither here nor there.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #289 on: June 01, 2018, 10:45:15 am »
Cavendish railed against Giro and Vuelta organisers for making their tours sprinters unfriendly.

Hopefully this is a general trend because organisers have realised that sprint stages make for pretty bad television viewing. (Except for 5 minutes at the end of the race.)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #290 on: June 01, 2018, 11:06:14 am »
Generally, yes, but it's also an opportunity for smaller teams to get a bit of the spotlight with breakaways.Also gives everybody else a rest (apart from sprint teams)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #291 on: June 01, 2018, 11:10:13 am »
Bespoke Live on R5 last night had some interesting talk on the case. May well be a year before a verdict will be reached.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #292 on: June 01, 2018, 11:14:10 am »
This isn't going to help with the sport's credibility issues. If he wins the Tour that'll be three Grand Tours waiting to find out if they need to find a new winner.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #293 on: June 01, 2018, 11:17:44 am »
Cavendish railed against Giro and Vuelta organisers for making their tours sprinters unfriendly.

Hopefully this is a general trend because organisers have realised that sprint stages make for pretty bad television viewing. (Except for 5 minutes at the end of the race.)

I hope it's not, echelon racing makes fantastic viewing and sprinting is a skill, both team and individual and the sprint trains don't always get it right. IMO GT parcours are already tilted too heavily to the climbers.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #294 on: June 01, 2018, 11:21:22 am »
Bespoke Live on R5 last night had some interesting talk on the case. May well be a year before a verdict will be reached.

A final verdict at CAS, that's about right I reckon, but no-way will UCI want it not settled at CADF before the worlds, that's their race and Froome  stands a chance of taking the triple crown.

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #295 on: June 01, 2018, 03:00:52 pm »
I hope it's not, echelon racing makes fantastic viewing and sprinting is a skill, both team and individual and the sprint trains don't always get it right. IMO GT parcours are already tilted too heavily to the climbers.

Exactly this.

It's not all about 15km climbs, which in themselves can have hours of dull peloton riding, leading up to the final climb.

It's about finding the best cyclist.  In my book that's the best all-round cyclist.

Doping allegations aside, Bradley Wiggins' and Chris Froome's ability to Time-trial and to climb is a tough combination of skills to beat.   The ability to sprint never usually bags you much of a time gap but it's as thrilling to watch the final 15km of a sprint stage as it it to watch the final 15km of a Mountain finish.

What's not to like about 4 or 5 teams hauling ass at 65km/hr all trying to launch their sprinter at 75km/hr?  The only downside is that TV can't convey the incredible speed very well.  My parents just think they are cycling very quickly.  I have difficulty explaining just how impossible it actually is for a normal human to cycle as quickly as a Cavendish.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #296 on: June 01, 2018, 05:39:49 pm »
Armstrong was innocent until 2012. By which time he had been retired for a couple of years. If he hadn't staged a comeback in 2009, he would most likely still be innocent.

This, quite definitely. He was convinced he would never get caught - which is why I'm convinced that doping eventually affects a rider's ability to make sensible and logical decisions (like when to get out!).
I actually got bored with the TdF when Armstrong was riding - preferred to go and ride my bike, even when it came to Limoges!

If Froome rides the TdF this year I probably won't be bothered to follow it, but he's not the only one to have that effect on me. The sprint finishes will still excite me though especially if Cav manages to be in the mix. (The Williams sisters have the same boring effect on me in tennis; come to think of it Jeannie Longho had that effect also).

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #297 on: June 01, 2018, 05:52:00 pm »
I'll still watch it and most likely enjoy it, even if Froome rides and wins, just as I enjoyed the Giro.

 It's funny to mention Armstrong again, because it was the way Sky and their leaders rode from 2011 onwards that seemed remarkably reminiscent of USPS. People reacted at the time, howls of laughter in the media tent whilst watching the race apparently. They'd seen it all before.   

The ensuing relevations of TUE abuse, Tramadol, employment of doping doctors, jiffy bags, spurious excuses to account for unlikely performances, government investigations, testosterone patches, failed drug tests, lies, 'lost' medical records and so on came as no surprise.

It's strange they don't talk about marginal gains anymore. Apparently this accounted for their early successes, but surely with movement of teams staff and riders to other teams these gains have been adopted by all.

Last Friday they claimed it was 'nutrition strategy'.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #298 on: June 01, 2018, 08:32:51 pm »
In which case  you'll be able to provide some links to back up your claims, within cycling. Start by newspaper articles and mainstream cycling websites (cyclingnews, velonews, Cyclingtips etc). Or perhaps key figures such as Hinault, Lemond etc calling riders into question. Or maybe even Tour organisers.

Random forum posts are neither here nor there.

Great pity Hinault did not get his facts straight before commenting.

A Team Sky Spokesperson said: ‘It is disappointing that Bernard is so outspoken given he has his facts wrong. Chris has not had a positive test, rather an adverse analytical finding for a prescribed asthma medication. As an ex-rider himself, Bernard will appreciate the need for fairness for each and every athlete.

“And at the current time, Chris is entitled to race. This process would normally be confidential to protect the athlete and establish the facts. Unfortunately, it was leaked.

“However, both Chris and the team are following the process that has been put in place by the UCI.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/may/29/chris-froome-cycling-bernard-hinault-giro-ditalia

He also asked why Froome gets so much time to resolve the matter forgetting the cases with Ulissi and Petacchi took considerable time to resolve.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #299 on: June 01, 2018, 08:38:27 pm »
What's not to like about 4 or 5 teams hauling ass at 65km/hr all trying to launch their sprinter at 75km/hr?  The only downside is that TV can't convey the incredible speed very well.  My parents just think they are cycling very quickly.  I have difficulty explaining just how impossible it actually is for a normal human to cycle as quickly as a Cavendish.

As the peloton contains teams who are really only interested in sprint stages, as opposed to GC, then I think the sprints are there to stay.  What has happened is the sprinters hanging in for the final stages whereas previously they might have abandoned, like Cipollini used to rather than put himself through the mountains.  I doubt whether we will ever see the wearer of the maillot jaune winning in Paris again like Hinault did in 1979.  GTs today are decided in the mountains or TTs and those that excel at those events are not contesting the sprints.  Times have changed.