what's the current state of UK Audax ?

[Ian H]

But back to my original comment... is there a validation bottleneck (crisis?)? Looks like anything that happened over the last 5 weeks has not been validated yet. Being the most prolific time of the year, that's a lot of rides

I expect they'll catch up quickly enough when they're back from their hols.

[Somnolent]

I expect they'll catch up quickly enough when they're back from their hols.

Our current validation secretaries are fortunate enough to be retired and with the means to travel away from home for several weeks at a time.
As Ian says, they catch up very quickly when they return.  The eagle-eyed will have spotted that they are retiring at the end of this season.  we already have some candidates, but if there are any more volunteers to take up the task, there are some brief details here or you can PM me.

There's also the results sheet to be filled in for submission to AUK. Part of me thinks I'd rather be doing that with the brevets in hand to cross-reference and double-check, at my leisure after the event is finished.
Probably not a concern for more experienced organisers who are less likely to make errors or omissions in the process ....

I recently discussed this with one of our most experienced, trusted, and prolific organisers some while ago.  Although AUK would have no hesitation in offering him 'instant' validation, he prefers to hang on to the cards to double-check in the calm away from the finish - before sending in returns electronically (for those events where that is permitted).

[whosatthewheel]

What does the role involve? Happy to do computer work, less so posting stuff here and there...

On the topic, about a month ago I enquired about the RRTY secretary role, but Caroline told me it had already been filled... THEN three weeks later I find it advertised on Arrivee... talk about internal communication... 

[Somnolent]

What does the role involve? Happy to do computer work, less so posting stuff here and there...

On the topic, about a month ago I enquired about the RRTY secretary role, but Caroline told me it had already been filled... THEN three weeks later I find it advertised on Arrivee... talk about internal communication... 

As has already been alluded to upthread, changes in validation process tend to the evolutionary rather than revolutionary, so posting physical cards/validation stickers will remain a feature for some time to come.  I'll be happy to send you the instruction document if you are still interested.

On your second point, I don't think you can blame internal communication.  I understand it was more to do with print deadlines.

[bhoot]

Whosatthewheel, Somnolent has beaten me to a reply... But yes, at the point I wrote back to you I wasn't in a position to finally confirm the new appointee, and by the time we were it was too late to change Arrivee copy unfortunately.
It was very pleasing to have so many people coming forward to volunteer their services (which I think provides part of the answer to the original question posed on this thread).

[whosatthewheel]

As has already been alluded to upthread, changes in validation process tend to the evolutionary rather than revolutionary, so posting physical cards/validation stickers will remain a feature for some time to come.

It's the posting... hundreds if not thousands of cards... it's a mammoth task... don't think I'd be up to it.

Personally, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to get the brevet card back on the day and the validation to be fully electronic... one could even think of a system to get access to a downloadable "validation sticker"... don't get me wrong, I love validated cards, but is the system sustainable with 7,000 members and two people doing the job?

[bludger]

Exactly the key thing in this case is 'scalability', an uptake in interest from non members in brevets might overwhelm the volunteer corps' paperwork capacity especially the postage.

[quixoticgeek]

It's the posting... hundreds if not thousands of cards... it's a mammoth task... don't think I'd be up to it.

Personally, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to get the brevet card back on the day and the validation to be fully electronic... one could even think of a system to get access to a downloadable "validation sticker"... don't get me wrong, I love validated cards, but is the system sustainable with 7,000 members and two people doing the job?

I think the 7000 member thing is a red herring. Whilst there are 7000 members, how many of them are actually active on a given month? Sure some of you will do a ride on every weekend in the summer (and winter too), but the reality is that most members aren't. It's probably safe to apply the 80/20 rule here. 80% of the brevet cards are done by 20% of the people.

Part of this then becomes expectation management. How long do people expect it to take to get their cards back? Who's in a hurry?

Oh, and as for posting stuff, if you have a good relationship with your local postoffice, shipping 10 items, and shipping 200 isn't that much different in effort.

J

[Manotea]

I've made a pitch for instant validiation for 300km events on the AUK Forum. It's mostly an issue for event organisers and the validations team, but all AUK members are invited to have their say.

[Greenbank]

I think the 7000 member thing is a red herring. Whilst there are 7000 members, how many of them are actually active on a given month? Sure some of you will do a ride on every weekend in the summer (and winter too), but the reality is that most members aren't. It's probably safe to apply the 80/20 rule here. 80% of the brevet cards are done by 20% of the people.

Part of this then becomes expectation management. How long do people expect it to take to get their cards back? Who's in a hurry?

Oh, and as for posting stuff, if you have a good relationship with your local postoffice, shipping 10 items, and shipping 200 isn't that much different in effort.

Based on the numbers here for 2016: http://www.aukweb.net/_resources/files/AGM_Papers.pdf

There are somewhere around 540 events per year (c.f. Breakdown of events by distance and year). Some organisers have multiple events on a single day so we'll say there needs to be ~450 separate batches of Brevet Cards mailed out to the organisers.

Then, assuming no electronic validation, those 450 batches of cards will be sent in for validation. Once validated those 450 batches of cards will be returned to the organisers for distribution back to riders.

Almost 2 parcels per weekday for the entire year, you're going to get to know your local postie very well and the local post office staff.

BRM events are roughly ~50 in non-PBP years and ~100 in PBP years. That adds to the admin overhead of the Recorder/Validation process (not sure if anything ever needs to be posted for these any more).

As for calendar event rider numbers (c.f. Breakdown by distance):

50 km 1118
100 km 10805
150 km 1190
200 km 6200
300 km 1006
400 km 647
600 km 456
1000 km 38
1200 km 27

for a total of 21487 Brevet Cards.

There were also a total of 5067 DIY/Perms (Perms 1764, DIY 3108, ECE 195) but most of the DIY and ECE rides will be 'virtual' brevet cards.

[whosatthewheel]

7000 members + all the non members who enter... and of the latter, the vast majority don't give a monkey about brevet cards being validated or not, and seeing they can't compete in any category, it's all pointless anyway...

ALL events should have instant validation as default, unless the organiser has particular reasons that justify opting out.

All BRM events should have a cheaper BR instant validation option, for those who are not interested in ACP stuff and don't want to over-burden the system and wait 2 months for a card to get through the mail

[citoyen]

ALL events should have instant validation as default, unless the organiser has particular reasons that justify opting out.

You‘re free to put that proposal to the next AGM if you wish.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

It is good to hear that there are lots of volunteers available.  I do have a longer term worry about volunteering activities - as my generation and those that follow it endure later state pension ages and less generous pension regimes, we're more likely to retire at 70+ rather than 60+ and consequently are likely to have no more than 10 years available to volunteer, rather the up to 20 (speaking like an actuary, so apologies to the 80+ aged volunteers who are still hugely effective).   

For the permanent rides I organise (50 - 100 entries a year) the auto validation of 100km & 200km rides (the majority of my entries) and, especially, Paypal entries which have made cheques a thing of the past have made the role a lot easier (several minutes per entry), there would still be a benefit of auto-validation of 300km rides but it would be minutes a year.

[frankly frankie]

ALL events should have instant validation as default, unless the organiser has particular reasons that justify opting out.

What you describe isn't validation at all - there is no value to it.

From the figures Greenbank posts above, clearly Populaires and arguably 200s should be self-validated (by the Organiser) where possible, and AFAIK this is what currently happens and has done for several years.

BRM events are roughly ~50 in non-PBP years and ~100 in PBP years. That adds to the admin overhead of the Recorder/Validation process (not sure if anything ever needs to be posted for these any more).

Cards sent to Paris?  Hasn't happened since the 1970s.  Numbered stickers sent from Paris to AUK HQ?  Went on until very recently - only 1 or 2 years ago I believe.

[whosatthewheel]

Looking at the numbers above, there are over 2,000 cards to deal for events of 300 and above... to me that still looks like a relatively large number, which in this day and age could be reduced.

How many people REALLY need ACP validation outside PBP years?

I don't see why instant validation is "inferior" and unsuitable for longer distances... the process is the same, whether it's a 200 of a 600, as long as they are both BR.
As I said, one can get validation for DIY events, supplying questionable evidence... I could borrow a GPX file from someone else, or drive at leasure to a few control points and google the answer for the infos, using streetview for the more stubborn ones... it would take no effort at all to get a DIY 400 validated from the comfort of my sofa.
Surely a sticker on the day from the organiser is far superior to the above.

[Manotea]

ALL events should have instant validation as default, unless the organiser has particular reasons that justify opting out.

You‘re free to put that proposal to the next AGM if you wish.

As a point of order, the introduction of "instant validation" for AUK validated events is an operational not regulatory matter; the current scheme could be extended to 300km and longer events at any time, and given that it would impact at most about 20 events a year as not all organisers would want to take it up, it would be a trivial change to implement.

Previous requests to allow instant validation for 300km events have previously been rejected on the grounds that ' you have to draw the line somewhere' and 'nobody else has asked'.

It seems to me that if a line must be drawn it is in the wrong place, and apparently any change requires a public petition.

Views from AUK members are welcome on the AUK forum where contributions will have far more impact then discussing it here.

[Cudzoziemiec]

What is validation? What is being validated and why?

[jsabine]

How many people REALLY need ACP validation outside PBP years?

I know need and want are both four letter words, but I'm not entirely convinced that anyone REALLY NEEDS to go on any of these bike ride audax things, let alone have any sort of validation.

it would take no effort at all to get a DIY 400 validated from the comfort of my sofa.

Leaving aside the fact that driving round a 400 - or at least to key points - does sound like a fair bit of effort, no reasonable validation process can eliminate cheating. What it can do is ensure that if you do want to cheat, it has to be an active process - you have to positively decide to do so. Personally, I think it's just a little bit sad if you do.

the current scheme could be extended to 300km and longer events at any time

It was discussed informally a couple of board meetings ago. Nothing was excluded for the future - but the wheels of AUK grind slowly ...

Views from AUK members are welcome on the AUK forum where contributions will have far more impact then discussing it here.

You've certainly got more chance of an official response from board members there.

And of course any members are welcome to attend board meetings as an observer. Let the secretary know in advance - next is in Birmingham on July 11th.

[Phil W]

The best things in life are worth waiting for.

[whosatthewheel]

How many people REALLY need ACP validation outside PBP years?

I know need and want are both four letter words, but I'm not entirely convinced that anyone REALLY NEEDS to go on any of these bike ride audax things, let alone have any sort of validation.

The discussion doesn't need to go into semantics... my point is that I would be happier to get immediate validation for ALL the events i enter, relieve pressure on the system and make do without the ACP sticker. Some will need that sticker for whatever reason and that is fine too. I don't see the problem in running an event as BR/BRM with different entry fee

For the record, I am the only one who has so far intervened in the AUK forum thread

[Manotea]

It was discussed informally a couple of board meetings ago. Nothing was excluded for the future..

So it officially wasn’t discussed and no actions agreed; it was simply kicked into the long grass.

….but the wheels of AUK grind slowly ...

Every time I see this tired, lazy excuse for doing nothing, "I reach for my gun".

Will you arrange for the issue to be included in the board meeting agenda, with a bias for action.

This is not something that requires a great deal of discusion or effort to progress, and there are considerable benefits for those affected by it.

Action this day!

[jsabine]

I don't see the problem in running an event as BR/BRM with different entry fee

Not possible under AUK rules - that genuinely would need an AGM motion to change. It may also be against ACP rules.

(It used to be possible, but the AUK rules were changed to exclude it. Before my time, but I *think* the change may have been driven to bring us into conformity with ACP.)

[Edit following Manotea's response below.]
This is my understanding, but may well be complete bollocks. It's based on incomplete recollections of conversations.

I'm away at the moment but will try to clarify my thoughts when I have an opportunity. Citations or withdrawal at that time.

[Further edit]
Yeah, I was talking bollocks. Confusion of rules around *riders* not being on two concurrent events, together with prohibitions on setting up new final controls at exactly the nominal distance on overlength events as the time deadline approached, with the intent of validating riders that had done (say) 600km in 40 hours but would have been out of time at the 625km arrivee.

I am clearly best ignored ...

[Manotea]

I don't see the problem in running an event as BR/BRM with different entry fee

Not possible under AUK rules - that genuinely would need an AGM motion to change. It may also be against ACP rules.

(It used to be possible, but the AUK rules were changed to exclude it. Before my time, but I *think* the change may have been driven to bring us into conformity with ACP.)

Citation please, as I think this comes under the heading of "Disinformation"

Leaving aside the 'no consolation prize' thing, whilst AUK systems arent designed to cope with events with multiple validation criteria, BR and BRM versions of the event could be scheduled to run simultaneously, the only restriction being that riders could only enter one of them. Beyond that, Orgs decide entry fees, not AUK, so the BR event could be charged at (say) £10 and the BRM event at £20.

[quixoticgeek]

Citation please, as I think this comes under the heading of "Disinformation"

Leaving aside the 'consolation prize' shibbolith , whilst AUK systems arent designed to cope with events with multiple validation criteria, BR and BRM versions of the event could be scheduled to run simultaneously, the only restriction being that riders could only enter one of them, and Orgs decide entry fees, not AUK, so the BR event could be charged at (say) £10 and the BRM event at £20.

Doubtless pointing this out will provoke those responsible to embark on a rash of pronouncements and rule making (good luck with that); the larger point is that if the Board responded to reasonable requests in a timely manner none of this would be necessary.

Is the difference in BR vs BRM really worth €10?

The question I would have here is, what would happen if you ran the BR and BRM version of an event both at the same time, but charged the same for both? What would the punters say?

The next question I have is, why do you need validation of your brevett so fast anyway? Does it matter if it takes a while to get your card back?

From what I understand of the Dutch setup (admittedly much smaller pool of events, and smaller pool of riders), Brevet cards are brought along to events during the season in the hope that a rider will be at the event and can pick it up post free, and then at the end of the season, any not delivered thus, are sent out by post. If you know where to look, the homologation sheet is available online so you can see you've been validated sooner, but the card takes a bit longer. The Homologation sheet is useful, even tho I don't yet have my card back from my March madness ride, the sheet being available online was enough for the recorder of AUK to add my Dutch BRM to my record.

J

[whosatthewheel]

I don't see the problem in running an event as BR/BRM with different entry fee

Not possible under AUK rules - that genuinely would need an AGM motion to change. It may also be against ACP rules.

(It used to be possible, but the AUK rules were changed to exclude it. Before my time, but I *think* the change may have been driven to bring us into conformity with ACP.)

Even if it was not possible... it's a technicality... all the organiser needs to do is to have two separate events which are the same event... How many TINAT were offered both as BR and BP?

Incidentally that could be introduced as a pilot and would give a wealth of insight on how many people are actually interested in ACP validation, when it comes as an extra...