Author Topic: Sainsbury self check out camera  (Read 1456 times)

Sainsbury self check out camera
« on: June 14, 2018, 09:53:16 pm »
I've been to at least 3 Sainsburys where there is a camera and screen facing you at the self service check out.

If anyone objects to this invasion of privacy, my advice is to turn the camera and screen sideways as it's mounted on a pole.

If enough people do this, Sainsbury might get the message.

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2018, 09:58:56 pm »
Presumably this is an attempt to reduce theft? They might do better by switching out their machines; even by the low low standards of self checkouts, the Sainsbury's ones I've used have been spectacularly crap; laggy interfaces, crashes, the works.

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2018, 10:28:53 pm »
I actually prefer the self-service checkouts and find the Sainsbury's ones work particularly well.  Can't remember the last time I had an issue with scanning, weighing, etc (unlike LIDL!)

Before their installation I would usually have to queue, sometimes for several minutes.  Now I rarely have to wait more than a few seconds , and that is only at peak times.

Presumably the cameras have been brought in because some people can't resist the temptation to fiddle the system, which is really just shoplifting by another name.

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2018, 10:37:00 pm »
I can't help thinking we should all be against replacing actual human jobs by the customer having to do it themselves. If everyone queue'd for the actual human, shops would soon abandon this stuff.

Kim

  • An appetite for the epic, but no real stamina
Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 11:28:36 pm »
I can't help thinking we should all be against replacing actual human jobs by the customer having to do it themselves. If everyone queue'd for the actual human, shops would soon abandon this stuff.

Counter argument is that people shouldn't have to do menial jobs that are best handled by a machine to earn a living.  There's more than enough of that sort of thing already.

Personally, I find them occasionally convenient[1], and know that they're a major accessibility boon for some people (and an accessiblity nightmare for others).  Most of the time (especially when you have big load with multiple identical items), a human operator is better.  I don't think we're going to see anything but a mixture of the two for the foreseeable future.

I note that the Co-op in Watlington had acquired some when I was camping there at the weekend.  As there was a long queue for the checkouts, my bike with full touring load was secured with a crappy cable lock outside and I only had a couple of items, I used one.  Another customer hissed "Don't come back!" to me as she walked past.  I assume I must have broken some sort of unpublished boycott[2] or something.   :-\



[1] Thanks to whoever it was on here that suggested them as a way to get rid of accumulated small change.
[2] Which seems unlikely to be effective, as given the proximity of the campsite and the Ridgeway, a fair proportion of the customers must be non-locals and therefore unaware.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2018, 11:39:00 pm »
I've been to at least 3 Sainsburys where there is a camera and screen facing you at the self service check out.

If anyone objects to this invasion of privacy, my advice is to turn the camera and screen sideways as it's mounted on a pole.

I'm curious why you think this is so egregious an invasion of privacy, when you're on camera virtually everywhere in any store anyway. At least with these ones you can see what the camera is picking up. (And yes, there were protests when they first came in because, depending on angle, they could pick up the PIN entry pad on the card reader, but there's a black box over that area on all the ones I've seen lately.)

Presumably the cameras have been brought in because some people can't resist the temptation to fiddle the system, which is really just shoplifting by another nametheft.

I think there's a fair bit of research that shows cameras are a bit of a deterrent, but it's seeing yourself on screen that *really* puts thieves off. Hence (at least in our local store) visible screens in the booze aisle and near other high value/easily concealable/easily resellable items.

I can't help thinking we should all be against replacing actual human jobs by the customer having to do it themselves. If everyone queue'd for the actual human, shops would soon abandon this stuff.

I agree to a great extent with your first sentence - it's yet another way companies are finding to externalise their costs, though checkout operation is i) tedious, ii) highly measured, and iii) pretty crap ergonomically, so I'm not sure we should have a great campaign to save those jobs in particular. But staff costs are an obvious thing for retailers to try and cut, and as a nation we seem to be so bloody obsessed with the cost of food to the exclusion of almost any consideration of quality, or of service, that I can't see self-checkouts disappearing any time soon - one assistant supervising six or eight or two dozen is a *lot* cheaper than having that number of tills open. (Plus, of course, some people actually prefer them, either because it's a shorter wait, or because you don't actually have to interact with another person when you use them.)

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2018, 11:42:35 pm »
I helped fund myself through 6th form by working 45 hours a week on a Tesco checkout. A lot of the checkout department staff badly needed that job to feed their families. Not sure where they would be now without that option?

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2018, 11:48:55 pm »
I helped fund myself through 6th form by working 45 hours a week on a Tesco checkout. A lot of the checkout department staff badly needed that job to feed their families. Not sure where they would be now without that option?

That's still true. (And given the rise in housing (and other) costs and the decline in social housing, probably more than ever.) I wasn't at all suggesting there should be a campaign to get rid of them.

(But rants about tax credits subsidising big corporates, and talk about universal incomes, is probably better taken off to POBI ...)

Kim

  • An appetite for the epic, but no real stamina
Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2018, 12:07:25 am »
I helped fund myself through 6th form by working 45 hours a week on a Tesco checkout. A lot of the checkout department staff badly needed that job to feed their families. Not sure where they would be now without that option?

Sure, but where do you draw the line?
Vacuum cleaners?
Sewing machines?
Strowger exchanges?
Combine harvesters?
Microprocessors?

Technology displacing menial jobs is nothing new, and it's only bad in the short term.  Ludditism[1] isn't going to change the problems of an unequal society.


[1] In the anti-technoloy sense the term is generally used.  The 19th century textile workers who protested against exploitative business practices would probably agree with me.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2018, 12:20:47 am »
I do my 'big' shopping online, and then mostly buy stuff in between from little supermarkets, with some fairly regular routines.  Wednesday lunchtime and Thursday first thing, for example, my commute routes take me past a sainsbo's local and I nip in to buy doughnuts/caramel crispy bites/cookies with no silly fruity bits/milk/coffee/dried fruit for the weirdo who doesn't eat cake or biscuits on my way to site.  Milk tends to come from the M&S audax control over the road.  Monday evening during the SmallestCub's karate, before he started taking himself there and back, I often used to nip in to the co-op.  I never do self checkout if I can possibly avoid it.  I like the staff in all the shops I regularly visit, and it brings a smile to my day to see the familiar faces.

I think I probably just like people more than I like tech.

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2018, 05:56:30 am »
Quote
I'm curious why you think this is so egregious an invasion of privacy, when you're on camera virtually everywhere in any store anyway. At least with these ones you can see what the camera is picking up. (And yes, there were protests when they first came in because, depending on angle, they could pick up the PIN entry pad on the card reader, but there's a black box over that area on all the ones I've seen lately.)


Quote
I think there's a fair bit of research that shows cameras are a bit of a deterrent, but it's seeing yourself on screen that *really* puts thieves off. Hence (at least in our local store) visible screens in the booze aisle and near other high value/easily concealable/easily resellable items.

Back on topic, my objection is to how close the camera is to you and also that the live screen is on "public" view. With the normal cctv, the cameras are pretty far away and possibly fairly high up and there is no close-up of your face, would you like it if there was a face facing close up camera that followed you everywhere in the store? And the normal cctv footage is only seen by the cctv operator or not at all, similarly I object to the cctv screens on buses as well.

I know cash machines has cctvs which does record you close up but the footage is not on public view.

I just do not want to see myself on a public screen.

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2018, 08:46:15 am »
Back on topic, ....

Which part of the above isn't on topic?  ???

You have a choice.  If you don't like the self-serve checkouts then don't use them.  In every store I've seen there are always manned tills if you are prepared to queue or have trolleys/large volumes of shopping.

I will be using the self-serve tills as they suit my needs and I accepted long ago that, where I live, I am on camera as soon as I step out of my door and probably for my entire day.


ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2018, 09:17:44 am »
Humans add very little to processing your selections at the till (my mother was a till jockey at Morrisons for many years) and it makes me a bit sad that we feel we need to protect those sorts of jobs for no better reason than we can't think of anything better for people to do.

Anyway, I have emails to answer.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2018, 09:36:31 am »
As a deaf person with the social skills of a badly brought up bear I think that self checkouts are one of the be best uses of technology in supermarkets coming second only to online grocery shopping.

How we employ that percentage of the population who cannot or do not want to take on more complex tasks is a different discussion with lots of philosophical musings. 
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Tim Hall

  • Bright are the stars that shine Dark is the sky
Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2018, 09:53:30 am »
A disadvantage of the auto tills is that you can't play "how much do you think this lot will cost?" with the cashier. Hours of fun for all the family.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2018, 11:03:24 am »
I can't help thinking we should all be against replacing actual human jobs by the customer having to do it themselves. If everyone queue'd for the actual human, shops would soon abandon this stuff.

Counter argument is that people shouldn't have to do menial jobs that are best handled by a machine to earn a living.  There's more than enough of that sort of thing already.
Both excellent arguments. The unfortunate reality is that people displaced form menial till jobs are probably first sent to menial shelf-loading jobs, then when those are automated, all unemployed. By some reckonings, middle-management type jobs are now at most risk of automation, so we're all heading for a life of unmitigated leisure.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2018, 11:11:12 am »
As for the cameras referred to by the OP; can't say – haven't seen them, none in branches near me. If your face is up on a big screen (I presume this is one screen per till, otherwise what would be the point?) yes, that does seem discomfitting, though objectively, your face is on view anyway. I wonder if they will start banning yashmaks etc at these tills? That could be a shame, as I imagine yashmak-wearers might be just the sort of person who might prefer to interact with a machine than an unknown human, not to mention feeding the anti-human-of-the-wrong-type feeling. Someone will have to try wearing a combination of niqab, balaclava, crash helmet and hoody, just for a laff.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2018, 12:04:04 pm »
Quote
I'm curious why you think this is so egregious an invasion of privacy, when you're on camera virtually everywhere in any store anyway. At least with these ones you can see what the camera is picking up. (And yes, there were protests when they first came in because, depending on angle, they could pick up the PIN entry pad on the card reader, but there's a black box over that area on all the ones I've seen lately.)


Quote
I think there's a fair bit of research that shows cameras are a bit of a deterrent, but it's seeing yourself on screen that *really* puts thieves off. Hence (at least in our local store) visible screens in the booze aisle and near other high value/easily concealable/easily resellable items.

Back on topic, my objection is to how close the camera is to you and also that the live screen is on "public" view. With the normal cctv, the cameras are pretty far away and possibly fairly high up and there is no close-up of your face, would you like it if there was a face facing close up camera that followed you everywhere in the store?

Fair point, it would be a touch disconcerting if someone with a SteadiCam was backing away from me every time I wandered round the supermarket. But this is a single camera per checkout, with a fixed location. I don't find it particularly intrusive - in fact, although I've seen the screens, I've not even noticed the camera position, though presumably it's either integrated with the screen or on the same mounting pole.

Quote
And the normal cctv footage is only seen by the cctv operator or not at all, similarly I object to the cctv screens on buses as well.

I know cash machines has cctvs which does record you close up but the footage is not on public view.

I just do not want to see myself on a public screen.

Well, er, don't look at yourself then. And at least the ones by the self checkouts are angled so the person who gets the best view of what's being displayed is the person using that checkout - I don't make a habit of looking at what activities can be seen on other screens.

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2018, 12:11:14 pm »
Back on topic, ....

Which part of the above isn't on topic?  ???

You have a choice.  If you don't like the self-serve checkouts then don't use them.  In every store I've seen there are always manned tills if you are prepared to queue or have trolleys/large volumes of shopping.

I will be using the self-serve tills as they suit my needs and I accepted long ago that, where I live, I am on camera as soon as I step out of my door and probably for my entire day.

I started this thread on the topic of the checkout camera. I actually prefer the self check out; they are much quicker and you don't need to interact with another person.

Going by the replies so far, I suppose there isn't any objection to the cameras, or they haven't used  a check out with the camera.

On the topic of the self checkout in general, why do you need to scan item item individually anyway? You should be able to put your basket on the machine and it scans all the items in one go, like the machines at the library.

As for the question of automation of menial jobs, that of course relates to how society is run; by and for the benefit of ordinary people or by and for the rich and powerful.

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2018, 12:15:22 pm »
On the topic of the self checkout in general, why do you need to scan item item individually anyway? You should be able to put your basket on the machine and it scans all the items in one go, like the machines at the library.

As for the question of automation of menial jobs, that of course relates to how society is run; by and for the benefit of ordinary people or by and for the rich and powerful.
Because bar codes are an established technology in retail and rfid is not, I suppose.

But linking the two together, it does seem that librarians welcomed the introduction of selfscan machines in libraries as it allows them to get on with the real work of librarianship as opposed to datestamping tickets. Perhaps the existence of that work is a key difference between libraries and supermarkets!
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2018, 12:32:31 pm »
I actually prefer the self check out; they are much quicker and you don't need to interact with another person.

I can't see why not having to interact with another person is an advantage.

Quote
On the topic of the self checkout in general, why do you need to scan item item individually anyway? You should be able to put your basket on the machine and it scans all the items in one go, like the machines at the library.

Because checkout machines aren't psychic. Library books can have RFID tags (little radio readable tags) stuck in them for they checkout to read, doing the same for food would be a ogistical nightmare plus it would result in huge amounts of RFID tags dumped in the rubbish. We are trying to reduce waste not create more.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2018, 12:33:32 pm »
I started this thread on the topic of the checkout camera.

The cameras are a corollary of self-checkouts because people thieve.  Can't really discuss one without the other.  I presume they are unmanned and largely a deterrent.

LIDL seem to have a different approach.  Every 10th item or so triggers an alert (for no obvious reason whatever) so you have to call an assistant who casts a cursory glance at the shelf before clicking it through.  I'm pretty sure that's just another scrote deterrent.  Personally I prefer the cameras!


Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2018, 12:34:36 pm »
I can't help thinking we should all be against replacing actual human jobs by the customer having to do it themselves. If everyone queue'd for the actual human, shops would soon abandon this stuff.

Counter argument is that people shouldn't have to do menial jobs that are best handled by a machine to earn a living.  There's more than enough of that sort of thing already.
Both excellent arguments. The unfortunate reality is that people displaced form menial till jobs are probably first sent to menial shelf-loading jobs, then when those are automated, all unemployed. By some reckonings, middle-management type jobs are now at most risk of automation, so we're all heading for a life of unmitigated leisure.
Well, we're the ones currently being targeted by the consultants.

As an amateur futurologist I do wonder where the tipping point is with regard to so many jobs having been automated that sufficient people will not have funds to buy the products or services of the automated processes that the companies will go out of business. And I wonder if it will be reached in my lifetime.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2018, 12:42:26 pm »
I have seen figures that in some parts of the world (Pacific Islands for instance) the majority of people have never been in employment. I don't think we're going to end up with a society based on growing vegetables, fishing, dancing in masks and cannibalistic wars, but there is the opportunity to develop something equally pleasant. Ha ha!
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Sainsbury self check out camera
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2018, 12:45:38 pm »
I actually prefer the self check out; they are much quicker and you don't need to interact with another person.

I can't see why not having to interact with another person is an advantage.
Because you're deaf, don't speak the local language, or have some disability that makes it difficult. Or maybe you want to avoid the disapproving looks from the Gulf Arab/Southern Baptist checkout operator when they scan your booze and porn!
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)