Author Topic: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST  (Read 6394 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2019, 07:45:48 pm »
I looked at one of my very few Strava-fied rides and found I can climb a lot slower than 7kph!

https://www.strava.com/activities/1617347507/segments/40497153727*

Bwlch-y-Groes from the SSW: 4.1kph average for 2.5km.

Took me 38mins, so it must have been a speed I could maintain "consistently" [in reality I was blowing out of my **** for 30mins of that. I was out of the saddle and pulling on the bars quite hard. I would certainly have been quicker over the day if I had saved some matches by walking up this little bugger. I really had nothing in my legs on any subsequent climb  :facepalm: ]

Perhaps interestingly, there were 2-or-3 riders stalking me on the climb on foot. I don't have data for them, but it seemed like I wasn't moving very much faster than they were walking! So, very roughly, the riding/walking crossover point is:

4kph, 12% gradient

I had a heavier bike/kit than average, but only by a few kg. I have no idea how this affects the data  ::-) ! I've never looked into this sort of data before, so this thread has been an inspiration.

*This was ~6am on day 2 of TINAT, in case anyone cares.
**** insert every orifice used by cyclists to describe this situation ever.

4kph is about my standard walking speed. My cadence calculator doesn't go low enough to give me numbers, but it's below 50rpm, that's quite a grind.

I generally cross to walking at about 6kph. Largely because I don't have the strength to grind out lower than that.

J

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Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2019, 08:08:47 pm »
4kph is about as slow as I can reliably maintain balance, especially if all hot and bothered.  I'll keep riding down to that on recumbents because they're really unpleasant[1] to push uphill (and will select gearing with that in mind).  With an upright I'll either have switched to the 24" gear before that, or opt for a stop-start anaerobic strategy to raise my moving speed to something more practical.  Which I chose at a given time will depend on things like tyre vs shoe traction, whether I'll get my feet wet and what's currently hurting the most.

With three wheels, low gears and sufficient traction it just comes down to whether winching is easier than walking.


[1] DF bikes have a substantial ergonomic advantage in this respect, on account of a convenient structural element at a comfortable height for a standing human to reach, which just happens to have the brake controls attached to it.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2019, 08:21:51 pm »
So a 40kg rider on a 10kg bike will require proportionally more of the work they are generating to lug themselves AND THE BIKE up the hill than an 80kg rider on a 10kg bike. (That doesn't mean the 80kg rider is automatically faster, that comes down to individuals and phyisiology.)
Which is why small riders shouldn't pay much attention to big riders saying weight doesn't matter.

Except a 40kg rider is very light. A 40kg rider with a healthy BMI would be about 1.4m tall (4'7" in old money). That's very short. <1.47m is enough to be considered a dwarf by the medical profession... A 1.47m tall person would need to be 43kg to have a BMI that is considered "healthy"...

This is why I picked 70kg for my numbers in this thread. (I've also calculated the numbers for a 60kg rider), it feels more realistic as a representative weight for a human.

J
I think Greenbank picked 40 and 80 mostly to make a point. Sure 70kg is more representative (but apparently the FAO uses 62kg as a "normal adult" weight) but 100kg is also common. The 70 and 100kg riders would both feel the 10kg bike to be rather different.

But the really strange thing here is that you've done a conversion into feetaninches!  :o
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2019, 08:24:50 pm »
Regarding the decision to walk up hills, Matt's made a good point; you might get up this one, but at the expense of energy/muscles/knees you're going to need later. Sometimes it's just better to walk even if you can ride (assuming not racing, obvs).
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2019, 08:39:34 pm »
I think Greenbank picked 40 and 80 mostly to make a point. Sure 70kg is more representative (but apparently the FAO uses 62kg as a "normal adult" weight) but 100kg is also common. The 70 and 100kg riders would both feel the 10kg bike to be rather different.

But the really strange thing here is that you've done a conversion into feetaninches!  :o

I think for most lifts and the like, 75kg is the assumed weight.

And yes, I did do a conversion on this one, so that lay readers who may not want to do the maths herself, would have an easy point of reference. Fear not, I won't make a habit of it.

Regarding the decision to walk up hills, Matt's made a good point; you might get up this one, but at the expense of energy/muscles/knees you're going to need later. Sometimes it's just better to walk even if you can ride (assuming not racing, obvs).

Yeah, this is one of the big points, esp for long distance riders. In the Cycling Podcast's Explore series, they interview the guy who broke the record for LEJOG, he mentioned that he was making sure not to go over 280w, on any climbs, so as to not over cook it for later.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2019, 08:45:51 pm »
I looked at one of my very few Strava-fied rides and found I can climb a lot slower than 7kph!

https://www.strava.com/activities/1617347507/segments/40497153727*

Bwlch-y-Groes from the SSW: 4.1kph average for 2.5km.

Took me 38mins, so it must have been a speed I could maintain "consistently" [in reality I was blowing out of my **** for 30mins of that. I was out of the saddle and pulling on the bars quite hard. I would certainly have been quicker over the day if I had saved some matches by walking up this little bugger. I really had nothing in my legs on any subsequent climb  :facepalm: ]

Perhaps interestingly, there were 2-or-3 riders stalking me on the climb on foot. I don't have data for them, but it seemed like I wasn't moving very much faster than they were walking! So, very roughly, the riding/walking crossover point is:

4kph, 12% gradient

I had a heavier bike/kit than average, but only by a few kg. I have no idea how this affects the data  ::-) ! I've never looked into this sort of data before, so this thread has been an inspiration.

*This was ~6am on day 2 of TINAT, in case anyone cares.
**** insert every orifice used by cyclists to describe this situation ever.

You were stationary for 10 minutes on that Strava segment.  Trackstanding just to make a point is cheating ;)

When you were climbing you were averaging about 4.7kph.  I was slightly faster the previous evening until I got off and started pushing at just over 3kph.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2019, 09:17:45 pm »
I think Greenbank picked 40 and 80 mostly to make a point. Sure 70kg is more representative (but apparently the FAO uses 62kg as a "normal adult" weight) but 100kg is also common. The 70 and 100kg riders would both feel the 10kg bike to be rather different.

But the really strange thing here is that you've done a conversion into feetaninches!  :o

I think for most lifts and the like, 75kg is the assumed weight.
It makes sense that lifts and footbridges and aircraft and so on assume a higher average. TBH I'd have thought 75kg was on the low side.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2019, 10:27:11 pm »
UK data from 2016:-

https://files.digital.nhs.uk/publication/m/0/hse2016-adult-trends.pdf

Page 12:

Male mean height: 175.6cm
Male mean weight: 84.6kg

Female mean height: 161.9cm
Female mean weight: 71.3kg
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2019, 10:39:36 pm »
re gearing and steep hills.
i've climbed some steep climbs last summer when being knackered and was wishing for a lower gear than 30/36. i would happily use 30/40 or 26/36 for those situations. i've got a 42/26 mtb chainset which i'm thinking to install on a gravel bike (it currently has 45/30).
regarding climbing speed - i can crawl at 3-4kph without losing balance, even track stand if needs be. having low gears is great. equally i love big gears for going fast (building one bike with 58t chainring).

Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2019, 10:46:47 pm »
Incidentally, for the same rider to climb the Timmelsjock at the 10kph average needed to complete an SR, you're looking at 138w, and that only gets you about 600m of the >10000m, in the full 600km...

If you ride up that regularly, you won't need tiny gears for long!

You'd have to be pretty ambitious to pick that as your first ride after buying a new bike ;D

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2019, 11:05:51 pm »
Incidentally, for the same rider to climb the Timmelsjock at the 10kph average needed to complete an SR, you're looking at 138w, and that only gets you about 600m of the >10000m, in the full 600km...

If you ride up that regularly, you won't need tiny gears for long!

You'd have to be pretty ambitious to pick that as your first ride after buying a new bike ;D

No, these aren't typical climbs for a newbie. But something like the Cauberg, or Box hill, or what ever local hill the local club go up are going to be enough to leave someone who's bought a new bike and joined the local club, walking up the hill. It doesn't take having to walk up many hills before you start to think "I'm never gonna be good enough for this", you start to make excuses rather than joining the club ride on a Sunday, and before you know it, the bike lays unused.

We aren't all Chris Froome, or Marianna Vos. Most of us will never used the 50/11? So why include it? For most people a 46/30, and an 11-36 is enough to get up most hills without causing any lasting damage. The 46/11 at 90rpm is still 48kph, How often do most people do 48 on the flat? Vs how often do people use their lowest gear on the hills?


J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - a Pacific bike ride
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2019, 02:54:39 am »
I joined the local cricket club for the first time and couldn't hit a six, so didn't return to cricket.

I joined the local swimming club for the first time and came last in the races, so didn't return to swimming.

I joined the local football club for the first time but didn't score any goals ...

QG, cycling is a sport you start off being bad at and get better - just like all the others.  You are talking about people going out as absolute beginners to do rides that are both long and hard, and you want then to be able to climb every hill without either going particularly slowly, having to pedal slowly or having to push hard.  That is a false hope that technology won't solve.  Drop it.

Why do manufacturers include high gears on bikes?  Come down to my club 10 one night.  You'll see plenty of people, including children, spinning out their 50 rings.  Ditto the local track.  Nobody in the first half of the field will even have a 50 ring - and this is all at gutter amateur level.  That's why.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2019, 08:06:15 am »
Some curious typos, Karla! But they don't obscure meaning, so let them be. To add to your point, QG is assuming all those newbies want to be (some version of) Chris Froome or Marianne Vos (including the version that comes last).
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - a Pacific bike ride
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2019, 09:35:43 am »
Some curious typos, Karla! But they don't obscure meaning, so let them be. To add to your point, QG is assuming all those newbies want to be (some version of) Chris Froome or Marianne Vos (including the version that comes last).

 :facepalm: Now corrected. 

I think if anyone really does want to be the next Chris Froome, they'll understand that the biggest hill you can climb is the one you can suffer up, not the one you can climb at a constant torque and cadence that are no different from your flat riding - and they'll also want those big gears.

Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2019, 10:53:11 am »
Quite. And you can go out today and buy a bike that has a 48/11 top gear, even if you do want a double.

Here's an example picked at random -
https://www.evanscycles.com/pinnacle-arkose-d3-2019-women-s-adventure-road-bike-EV339955

They aren't going to stop selling bikes with other types of cranks if they remain popular. But there's pretty good choice and lots of economical after-market options.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2019, 11:47:14 am »
I joined the local cricket club for the first time and couldn't hit a six, so didn't return to cricket.

I joined the local swimming club for the first time and came last in the races, so didn't return to swimming.

I joined the local football club for the first time but didn't score any goals ...

QG, cycling is a sport you start off being bad at and get better - just like all the others.  You are talking about people going out as absolute beginners to do rides that are both long and hard, and you want then to be able to climb every hill without either going particularly slowly, having to pedal slowly or having to push hard.  That is a false hope that technology won't solve.  Drop it.

I went to a local club for their social Sunday morning ride, I'd already been riding for a few thousands of km. They advertised as a no drop social pace. I got dropped, and rode home alone. When I pointed this out to the organiser, his answer was to remove the no drop from the advert.

In cricket the people from the club aren't going to be stood at the top of the hill waiting for you to push your bike up the hill, or an equivalent. Ditto swimming or football. I think this is a false equivalence

Quote
Why do manufacturers include high gears on bikes?  Come down to my club 10 one night.  You'll see plenty of people, including children, spinning out their 50 rings.  Ditto the local track.  Nobody in the first half of the field will even have a 50 ring - and this is all at gutter amateur level.  That's why.

Great. You've missed my point. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to buy a 53/11 chainset, or a 11-28 cassette. I'm suggesting that it would be better for everyone if they expanded their range to include lower gearing as well. So that a 46/30 is an option along side the 50/34. With the rise of the gravel bike as the middle ground between road and MTB, I'm not the only one who has felt that there is a need for gearing between the two. Esp given the designed in incompatibility between MTB and Road running gear. Even zigzag, an experienced rider, and TCR veteren, has sort out lower gears.

Saying that people can buy a stock bike and fit the FSA SL-K Modula 46/30 crankset if they want lower gears is hardly accessible for new riders. Surely it would be better if the experience cyclists were taking the stock chainrings off their bike, and putting bigger ones on if they want bigger gears, rather than the industry expecting those who want lower gears to be seeking out smaller manufacturers, to find parts to work in unapproved combinations, so they can get into cycling, so they can ride the rides they want to ride. My current bike has a Tiagra 4700 10 speed rear mech, and a Deore front mech. Both are controlled by Tiagra STI shifters. Officially according to every source I can find, these shifters, and this front mech will not work. The pull ratio is wrong. But I've got 11.8Mm of riding on this so far. The chainset is a 28/40. Coupled with an 11-34 cassette. I still walk up a lot of hills, fewer than I used to, but still more than I'd like. If I'd been stuck with a 1:1 gear, I'd probably not be venturing out of the flat lands very much, because of how demotivating it is to never be able to get up hills.

At your local club 10, and your local track the top half of the field won't have a 50t chain ring. Great. James Hayden won the TCR with a 46t front chain ring. If I get a place for TCRno7, I'll be riding it with a 28/38 chainset.

J



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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2019, 11:51:32 am »
That bike* - a 2019 model - is part of the recent swing BACK towards bikes that will actually go places, rather than for impersonating Froome. And thus - admirably - it has more sensible gears.  :thumbsup:

( Rewind 5 years and there was very little available off-the-shelf. Remember when a 34T inner ring was considered a new thing, and to be scoffed at by "proper" cyclists?!? Real men  climb on a 42t ! )


*EDIT: the pinnacle "adventure" bike.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2019, 11:54:16 am »
I've been riding a Pinnacle Pyrolite for the last 5 years and it is easily the best (and cheapest) bike I've ever owned (admittedly I changed the gearing) - and I have had some exotica in my time.

I think Greenbank picked 40 and 80 mostly to make a point. Sure 70kg is more representative (but apparently the FAO uses 62kg as a "normal adult" weight) but 100kg is also common. The 70 and 100kg riders would both feel the 10kg bike to be rather different.

A 100kg rider would invalidate the guarantee on many lightweight bikes currently sold.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2019, 12:07:09 pm »
( Rewind 5 years and there was very little available off-the-shelf. Remember when a 34T inner ring was considered a new thing, and to be scoffed at by "proper" cyclists?!? Real men  climb on a 42t ! )

This is something that *REALLY* pisses me off. The Gatekeeping. Real cyclists climb on a 42t inner ring. Real cyclists wear their glasses outside their helmet straps, real cyclists wear the correct length of socks, real cyclists slam their stems, real cyclists...

You know what makes a real cyclist? Someone who doesn't give a fuck about any of that, a real cyclist welcomes anyone on a pedal powered vehicle, no matter of ability of enthusiasm. Real cyclists help those starting out or of lower abilities to rise, of to just ride. Real cyclists aren't arseholes.

Fucking gatekeepers.

J

PS I appreciate that isn't you Mattc, it's just something that really pisses me off.
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
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Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2019, 12:11:08 pm »
You know what makes a real cyclist? Someone who doesn't give a fuck about any of that, a real cyclist welcomes anyone on a pedal powered vehicle, no matter of ability of enthusiasm. Real cyclists help those starting out or of lower abilities to rise, of to just ride. Real cyclists aren't arseholes.

Word!
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2019, 12:24:16 pm »
I joined the local cricket club for the first time and couldn't hit a six, so didn't return to cricket.

I joined the local swimming club for the first time and came last in the races, so didn't return to swimming.

I joined the local football club for the first time but didn't score any goals ...

QG, cycling is a sport you start off being bad at and get better - just like all the others.  You are talking about people going out as absolute beginners to do rides that are both long and hard, and you want then to be able to climb every hill without either going particularly slowly, having to pedal slowly or having to push hard.  That is a false hope that technology won't solve.  Drop it.

I went to a local club for their social Sunday morning ride, I'd already been riding for a few thousands of km. They advertised as a no drop social pace. I got dropped, and rode home alone. When I pointed this out to the organiser, his answer was to remove the no drop from the advert.

In cricket the people from the club aren't going to be stood at the top of the hill waiting for you to push your bike up the hill, or an equivalent. Ditto swimming or football. I think this is a false equivalence
Sounds to me like the club misdescribed their ride. Or possibly they thought it really was a social ride and that they were happy to ride at the pace of the slowest (which I wouldn't interpret as everyone always *riding* at the same speed, but the faster riders take it easy and wait for however long it takes – usually seems a lot longer when you're the one riding up the hill than waiting – for the slower ones in the group) because they were all of a similar speed and attitude. Then you came along and they realized they weren't. In which case you've done that club a good deed as well as others who might have ridden with them and yourself. Find a friendlier club!

But Karla's cricket comparison has relevance. Cricket is a sport, cycling doesn't have to be but if you (that's you not a club you might ride with) choose to treat it as one, then that entails winners and losers, competition, improvement and decline. Sport doesn't have to be serious, it can be a laugh where no one really cares who wins but that's for you to choose. Choose competition, choose having a laugh with your mates, choose riding to work, choose riding for cake. Choose a club. Choose a club that's competing for Prins van Oranje fietsrace, choose a club that sneers at those who wear their glasses at the wrong angle. Or don't. I didn't and neither did I enter the Transcontinental.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2019, 12:31:12 pm »
...
 The Gatekeeping.
...

PS I appreciate that isn't you Mattc
Nevertheless, I am definitely going to change my online handle to "The Gate Keeper"  :thumbsup:

(and t henI'll make a short film, title:  "The Gatekeeping - beginners beware!" )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2019, 12:36:30 pm »
I have a slightly disturbing image of Matt in gold braid uniform at the entrance to a posh hotel, maybe the Ritz or Savoy.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2019, 12:38:26 pm »
I have a slightly disturbing image of Matt in gold braid uniform at the entrance to a posh hotel, maybe the Ritz or Savoy.

Could be worse, I'm thinking Sigourney Weaver in Ghostbusters...
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Suitable Kit was Diversity was : AUK CHAIRMAN ST
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2019, 12:46:40 pm »
OK I THINK THIS HAS RUN ITS COURSE NOW  :hand:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles