Author Topic: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?  (Read 6668 times)

mattc

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Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2018, 07:40:17 pm »
I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.

Well, bully for you. This thread is for people who are interested in a project that is designed to keep traditional perms alive. If that's of no interest to you, you are not obliged to take part.
Exactly.

Meanwhile, quite a few perms are thriving. There is a much-praised report in current Awoowoo about the Cambrian SuperRandy, and a quick glance at the Cambrian Perms threads shows a steady-and-growing following  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

FifeingEejit

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Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2018, 09:38:47 pm »
Ok, latest on the spreadsheet

Driving off the Controls comma separated list it's creating a list of all distinct control names in the sheet Controls Extract
The purpose of that will be (once I figure out how to do it) to allow you to see what controls need to be added to the "Control Mapping" sheet
In the control mapping sheet will be a mapping between control name and co-ordinates; each control name needs to be put in manually

In the Control co-ordinates column of the main sheet it will match the Controls in the controls column to the control co-ordinate in Control Mapping and render a semi-colon separated list of control co-ordinates. I've used semi-colons to separate the controls in there since the GPS co-ordinates are already using dots and commas.

This is more interesting than anything I've done at work recently so really got into it...


What it still needs is for control lists to be added

αdαmsκι

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Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2018, 09:48:38 pm »

Here's my idea (reinventing the wheel here): e-permanents. You get a GPX and routecard automatically when you pay. Validation by GPX.

So like this?
http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/PL03/ or this: http://www.aukweb.net/perms/detail/MH01/


I'll see if I can fill in any gaps on the spreadsheet when I get a chance. This sounds like it'll be very useful. It's always good to follow a route picked my someone who knows the good roads.
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Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2018, 09:55:19 pm »
Ok, latest on the spreadsheet

Driving off the Controls comma separated list it's creating a list of all distinct control names in the sheet Controls Extract
The purpose of that will be (once I figure out how to do it) to allow you to see what controls need to be added to the "Control Mapping" sheet
In the control mapping sheet will be a mapping between control name and co-ordinates; each control name needs to be put in manually

In the Control co-ordinates column of the main sheet it will match the Controls in the controls column to the control co-ordinate in Control Mapping and render a semi-colon separated list of control co-ordinates. I've used semi-colons to separate the controls in there since the GPS co-ordinates are already using dots and commas.

This is more interesting than anything I've done at work recently so really got into it...


What it still needs is for control lists to be added

I used this to batch geocode the perm  starts

http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/geocoder/

You need a mapquest api key to do it, but it returns comma separated results to easy to cut / paste back into a spreadsheet.  Annoyingly it has an american bias and seems to default to USA locations if you don't have the county / country in the address. There might be an option hidden somewhere to search in Europe first.  But it is relatively quick for building up lat / lon lists for places.

FifeingEejit

  • Small, Far Away
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2018, 10:01:01 pm »
Yeah, that'll be quicker than dropping each one into Google Maps!
Although Google maps gives a chance to check it's sensible!

I can now see people adding new controls that aren't already in the mapping sheet by watching the Control extract sheet :-)

FifeingEejit

  • Small, Far Away
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2018, 10:04:44 pm »
It gives more detail of the address so I've already rejected it's determination that Acharchle is in the Mid-West of the USA

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2018, 11:22:43 pm »
Think it would be worth having a column for the 'name' of the Perm.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2018, 11:33:31 pm »
AUK regular perms (of which I organise 4) can be started anywhere on route ridden either way round and also validated entirely by gps so no need for receipts / brevet card/ stamps / anything, Shirley far easier than a DIY over the same route?

unless I am one of a privileged few orgs who are allowed to do it the easy way having been doing it without any problems at all for 6 years and with many happy riders...

FifeingEejit

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Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2018, 11:54:04 pm »
Got a fair whack of the control locations in; that's assuming mapquest got the ones it identified as being in the UK right
it's also assuming the ones I did manually in google maps I've picked up the co-ordinates right (i just tested Land's end and had the co-ords for the north channel...)

There are some in the "controls missing mappings" list that I've been unable to identify even by working out a route around the other controls on routes it appears in; see "Victoria"

There's also cases such as Richmond, where there are multiple places; it's possibly that it could be Richmond North Yorks, Richmond London or some other Richmond.
I don't know for sure that they've been made distinct in all uses of them; so if you spot a ride in North Yorks that has a spike down to London or somewhere else improbable for the distance, it can be fixed by adjusting the control list (you may need to either identify the correct place from the list or add a new control to the list).

I've cleaned a few up as some were being entered but I'm away now until I get back from the Borders of Fife

Keep the control list to controls separated by commas, if there's also useful text around the control list on the website put that into the extra info column.

Fictional example:
Website Description: Cracking route in the borders from Gala, Controls at Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat or Johnstone bridge and Langholm
Extra info - Cracking route in the borders from Gala, Controls at Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat or Johnstone bridge and Langholm
Control List - Gala, Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat, Johnstone Bridge, Langholm, Gala

Also, avoid trailing commas or full stops on the last entry in the control list as that won't then match the controls that are already entered.

To add a control from the missing list (unless it's the first in the missing list)
Copy the text from the column B of the Controls Extract
Drop it into Column A of the Control Mapping sheet and put the GPS co-ordinates in Column B
That control should then automatically disappear from column B of the Controls Extract


Beats sitting reading my colleagues code all day since they hung onto the reviews until the end of the project they're doing...  :sick:

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2018, 12:02:36 am »
You're one of a 'privileged few' organisers who choose to i) offer enough information for riders to know what they're actually going to ride, ii) allow riders to start anywhere in the route/at any control (ok, most organisers (I think) do this), and iii) offer validation by GPS.

All of these are available to every perm organiser (and to me it's minimal information that is the biggest sticking point, so chapeau to Phil for taking this on), but I think (and hope I'm wrong) there are only about three who officially offer GPS validation. It's up to the orgs to say what they offer ...

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2018, 07:22:04 am »
Useful resource, but...

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.


You are the idiot who rides up an A road because you don't know the loverly quiet route on a B road

You are the idiot who rides on a NCR instead of a nice bit of A road because you've not been this way before

If you rely on Google Maps you miss out

The perms aren't a marketing ploy they are wisdom

Aside from the fact I have no idea what you are talking about,

If you want to call me names, I suggest you contact me directly... maybe we can sort it out between ourselves

mattc

  • "Hannibal"
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Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2018, 07:59:28 am »
... but I think (and hope I'm wrong) there are only about three who officially offer GPS validation. It's up to the orgs to say what they offer ...

I do think it should be mentioned that only a special few were empowered to do this until quite recently. And it's not just a button to press on a form - there is some setup admin to be done (which non-techy organisers will struggle with.)

(If Phil's amazing map comes to fruition, it might be the kick-up-the-arse to get mine done ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2018, 09:03:57 am »

 I think "paper" permanents (as such) are a dying breed.
The sheer hassle involved in applying for a perm card and collecting multiple receipts is going to be dwarved (and already is) by the DIY option.



Not from my perspective, & I would regard myself as a fairly typical AUK member. Of the 20 events I've ridden this season 25% have been traditional card & receipt perms (50% calendar, 25% DIY).


As a rule I find traditional perms follow nice routes with well thought out controls. Part of the pleasure of riding an Audax is the regular stops to eat & drink, so collecting receipts is no hardship & looking out for info controls adds an extra dimension to the ride.


This is a great project & I'm looking forward to using it to find new rides to try.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2018, 09:17:37 am »

As a rule I find traditional perms follow nice routes with well thought out controls. Part of the pleasure of riding an Audax is the regular stops to eat & drink, so collecting receipts is no hardship & looking out for info controls adds an extra dimension to the ride.


Looking at perms validations, typically (which means there are exceptions) it's a restricted pool of individuals that use the same perm  over and over for their RRTY. If you know the perm, you know what you are buying when you press the button.
If you don't know the perm, then it's a gamble, sometimes it works, other times you get something which doesn't suit (like in my case above).
A repository with information helps, but I don't see how the OP can provide all the information needed (controls, number and locations, validation type: GPS? Photos?) without the cooperation of ALL the perm holders.

I will certainly buy perm cards again in the future, but not without doing a lot of homework ahead (like harassing the perm holder for details)... if this resource will help in that respect, great... but my issue wasn't route as such, that can be found for most perms on Ridewithgps or other resources...

mattc

  • "Hannibal"
  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2018, 05:13:04 pm »
I will certainly buy perm cards again in the future, but not without doing a lot of homework ahead (like harassing the perm holder for details)...
Jolly good - just stick to the ones you can get good info for, or you already know about. That's the marketplace we have; nobody cares if you don't try out every perm! Maybe the ones that "discourage" entries will fade away, and the "good" ones will thrive. Marvellous!

Quote
if this resource will help in that respect, great...
So stop moaning and let them get on with it. "If you haven't got anything nice to say ... " as my mum (and probably yours ) used to say!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2018, 10:26:32 pm »
Got a fair whack of the control locations in; that's assuming mapquest got the ones it identified as being in the UK right
it's also assuming the ones I did manually in google maps I've picked up the co-ordinates right (i just tested Land's end and had the co-ords for the north channel...)

There are some in the "controls missing mappings" list that I've been unable to identify even by working out a route around the other controls on routes it appears in; see "Victoria"

There's also cases such as Richmond, where there are multiple places; it's possibly that it could be Richmond North Yorks, Richmond London or some other Richmond.
I don't know for sure that they've been made distinct in all uses of them; so if you spot a ride in North Yorks that has a spike down to London or somewhere else improbable for the distance, it can be fixed by adjusting the control list (you may need to either identify the correct place from the list or add a new control to the list).

I've cleaned a few up as some were being entered but I'm away now until I get back from the Borders of Fife

Keep the control list to controls separated by commas, if there's also useful text around the control list on the website put that into the extra info column.

Fictional example:
Website Description: Cracking route in the borders from Gala, Controls at Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat or Johnstone bridge and Langholm
Extra info - Cracking route in the borders from Gala, Controls at Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat or Johnstone bridge and Langholm
Control List - Gala, Glen Cafe St Mary's loch, Moffat, Johnstone Bridge, Langholm, Gala

Also, avoid trailing commas or full stops on the last entry in the control list as that won't then match the controls that are already entered.

To add a control from the missing list (unless it's the first in the missing list)
Copy the text from the column B of the Controls Extract
Drop it into Column A of the Control Mapping sheet and put the GPS co-ordinates in Column B
That control should then automatically disappear from column B of the Controls Extract


Beats sitting reading my colleagues code all day since they hung onto the reviews until the end of the project they're doing...  :sick:

Thanks for doing this. I have geen out today on a final check of my calendar 200 that runs next weekend.

I can run the the control lists through a straighline distance calc and compare to event distance. We can flag up any that exceed the event distance. Does not mean you have the right control location.  In the Peak there are three villages all with the same name within 20 miles. But I don't think we need perfection. If the outline is good enough it will help riders decide whether they wish to enter a particular perm or indeed find perms with controls close to where they are looking.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2018, 11:42:08 am »
"But I don't think we need perfection. . . . the outline is good enough"
This ^^^  Doesn't really even need to be the controls, provided we get the rough outline of the route generated. Prospective riders can go to the event itself for details. Think addition of the Ride Name would be a bonus.

alfapete

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Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2018, 11:51:42 am »
This is brilliant work, guys, and will be widely used by many.

We need to get you working on the website..... ;D
alfapete - that's the Pete that drives the Alfa

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2018, 02:34:43 pm »
"But I don't think we need perfection. . . . the outline is good enough"
This ^^^  Doesn't really even need to be the controls, provided we get the rough outline of the route generated. Prospective riders can go to the event itself for details. Think addition of the Ride Name would be a bonus.

I have all the ride names, certainly in my spreadsheet on the PC. The ride names appear in the pop ups.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2018, 05:43:36 pm »
Phil - I have done most of "SP's" (thus depriving Stephen of the enjoyment of so doing) and have discovered the diversity of his many routes.
If you know the perm, you know what you are buying when you press the button.
If you don't know the perm, then it's a gamble, sometimes it works, other times you get something which doesn't suit (like in my case above).
A repository with information helps, but I don't see how the OP can provide all the information needed (controls, number and locations, validation type: GPS? Photos?) without the cooperation of ALL the perm holders.

I will certainly buy perm cards again in the future, but not without doing a lot of homework ahead (like harassing the perm holder for details)... if this resource will help in that respect, great... but my issue wasn't route as such, that can be found for most perms on Ridewithgps or other resources...
If one doesn't "know" the perm, don't press the button - who'd do that? (except a gambler)
Many if not most of the perm event geographic details are on the event page (eg starting from where and the controls). Some are not and we'll need to ask the perm holders to help (either by providing the data to a willing other or better still going onto the sheet and filling it in) - that's the extent of the cooperation needed / hoped for.
In my experience, which may be even as limited as yours, perm holders are entirely content to be so-called "harrassed" for details. This is not "a lot of homework". This is sensible (normal) checking, before 'pressing the button

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2018, 05:57:16 pm »
On the few occasions that I've done permanents I've started from home. The ones from Southport were particularly useful. The ride to Southport was part of the rides, and I finished at home.

So I'm not as concerned with where the ride starts from, as what the nearest point to my home is, or to those of relatives and friends.   

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2018, 06:40:12 pm »
On the few occasions that I've done permanents I've started from home.  .  .  So I'm not as concerned with where the ride starts from, as what the nearest point to my home is, or to those of relatives and friends.
I see this project as meeting exactly that desire.
When I said "the perm event geographic details are on the event page (eg starting from where and the controls)" I recognised the fact that most perms can be 'started from anywhere' or at least join the route anywhere on it, but for data purposes the start control is often not so listed but needs to be added for this to map effectively.

LEE

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Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2018, 06:46:14 pm »
The Anoraks Delight 200* passed within 2 miles of my local town centre so I cleared it with the org to ride it as a Perm (many times) starting and finishing with a cashpoint receipt from a local bank.

*A lovely route actually.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2018, 06:59:49 pm »
The Anoraks Delight 200* passed within 2 miles of my local town centre so I cleared it with the org to ride it as a Perm (many times) starting and finishing with a cashpoint receipt from a local bank.
*A lovely route actually.
Well if one goes to the perm site [ http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/mb02/ ] one gets this:
An anoraks delight 200: "200km permanent cycling event starting from .." and that's it
But the data (which a member of the anarchic team has entered, or maybe Mark himself) are:
Tadley, Odiham, New Alresford, Bishop's Waltham, Romsey, Amesbury, Andover, Tadley
which they've sourced from the Thames valley audax list of perms - https://sites.google.com/site/thamesvalleyaudax/what-is-audax/permanents

FifeingEejit

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Re: Where do permanent Events start from and go - can you help?
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2018, 08:34:20 pm »
Have had to do a fair bit of digging for some of them; including but not limited to finding Calendar versions, club websites, rwgps links, links to threads here!
Also managed to figure out the controls for on (Daves Dale's Tour Plus) from a blog post written by a route checker although the "Plus" in it is a leg up a dead end dale to get an extra 40k, so all I could do with that was identify the furthers place up the dale with a café; hopefully accurate enough for this.

Then there's the obscure control descriptions found in them like Café at the top of the pass  ::-)

There's 148 still to have controls identified, which should now highlight in Red