Author Topic: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)  (Read 13025 times)

Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #175 on: October 05, 2019, 10:36:11 pm »
The storage hooks on XCountry seem to be a better design than the new GWR efforts...
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #176 on: October 05, 2019, 11:05:05 pm »
The CrossCountry ones seem easier to get your wheel into (assuming sufficient lifting ability and it actually fitting), but the new ones might make slightly better use of the vertical space?
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #177 on: October 05, 2019, 11:46:47 pm »
This tweet seems relevant... https://twitter.com/CrossCountryUK/status/1180468122391846912   :facepalm:

I suggest we all write them a complaint every time our CrossCountry bikes-on-trains experience is anything other than perfect...
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #178 on: October 07, 2019, 02:38:43 pm »

Sparked by all the comments on twitter, and here, I kinda did a bit of a thread of photos of bikes on trains across Europe, Covering Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, and Slovenia.

You can find the thread here:

https://twitter.com/quixoticgeek/status/1181184296398274561

If people want I can either post the photos here too, or if anyone wants full res originals, just ask. They are all CC-BY-SA. Feel free to use in any campaigning, complaining, or what ever you see fit. It covers the full example of silly hooks, right up to what I consider the gold standard of level access, loads of space, no stupid hooks, and straps to hold the bikes in place.

Seems I take my bike on a lot of trains... Yet still no photos of the bike on the Danish trains (used 2 of), or French (used 1 of), or Luxembourg... *doh*

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #179 on: October 07, 2019, 03:00:40 pm »
Interesting thread.  :thumbsup:
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #180 on: October 07, 2019, 03:06:43 pm »

Have added a small sub thread on pricing/ticketting for the various trains. It's not complete as I can't find all the tickets. But gives a rough idea.

https://twitter.com/quixoticgeek/status/1181204362015719426

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #181 on: October 07, 2019, 03:17:35 pm »
Those lower-level hook racks are interesting.  The bike takes up almost as much space as it does horizontally, but you've got the fun of fighting with hooks.  I suppose they're a bit more secure than a standard wheelbender, if you don't use additional straps.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #182 on: October 07, 2019, 03:21:59 pm »
Those lower-level hook racks are interesting.  The bike takes up almost as much space as it does horizontally, but you've got the fun of fighting with hooks.  I suppose they're a bit more secure than a standard wheelbender...

The primary gain from them is that you can have x amount of bikes there, and in theory get any of them out at any given time, where as horizontal against the wall you have to coordinate so that if someones bike is against yours, you have to move it to get to yours.

On Saturday there were 3 bikes in the bike space on an NS VIRM train. 2 of us were getting off in 2 stops (Eindhoven), and one at the end of the line (Maastricht). So on rocky track, and with morons trying to push past us, we had to do a tower of Hanoi style move to get my bike from the bottom of the pile, to the middle of the pile, the bike from the middle of the pile to the bottom of the pile, and the touring bike with giant panniers on it to to the top of the pile.

Consider also that those German intercity trains, in summer, *ALL* the bike space is fully booked. I ended up taking 6 regional trains rather than 2 IC trains because the IC's had fully booked bike spaces. Fortunately all the regional trains, despite being double deckers, had level access space with no stupid hooks (but no straps). Unfortunately a lot of stations didn't have working lifts, making changes a big faff...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #183 on: October 07, 2019, 03:28:30 pm »
Those lower-level hook racks are interesting.  The bike takes up almost as much space as it does horizontally, but you've got the fun of fighting with hooks.  I suppose they're a bit more secure than a standard wheelbender...

The primary gain from them is that you can have x amount of bikes there, and in theory get any of them out at any given time, where as horizontal against the wall you have to coordinate so that if someones bike is against yours, you have to move it to get to yours.

Yeah, that makes sense, but then so does a row of wheelbenders/channels (usually with knackered velcro or cam straps to stop the bike rolling out[1]), of the type you tend to get on GWR and some CrossCountry HSTs.

(The pair-of-wheelbenders-in-a-corner arrangement you get on some British local services doesn't count, because the bike against the wall is markedly harder to get at without moving the outer one.  But there only being room for two bikes minimises the amount of Sokoban you have to play.)


[1] The best approach here, and in most bikes-on-trains situations, is to lock one of the brakes on with a convenient rubber band to reduce rocking and rolling.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #184 on: October 07, 2019, 03:46:10 pm »
Yeah, that makes sense, but then so does a row of wheelbenders/channels (usually with knackered velcro or cam straps to stop the bike rolling out[1]), of the type you tend to get on GWR and some CrossCountry HSTs.

(The pair-of-wheelbenders-in-a-corner arrangement you get on some British local services doesn't count, because the bike against the wall is markedly harder to get at without moving the outer one.  But there only being room for two bikes minimises the amount of Sokoban you have to play.)


[1] The best approach here, and in most bikes-on-trains situations, is to lock one of the brakes on with a convenient rubber band to reduce rocking and rolling.

The problem with anything hook like is it requires you to lift it. The Big Space To Put Bikes™ type arrangement (see new Dutch Sprinter, Arriva local trains in NL, DB Regional trains), is the ideal option, Sure if there's 30 of you it requires some coordination, but 95% of the time it's only a handful of you and there's no conflict.

The primary argument people give is "BUT YOUR TAKING SEATING SPACE AWAY FROM PEOPLE!".

To which I say "Just run more trains"
"But who pays for it?"
"I do, when I pay the VAT on Tampons, or the duty on my beer, or my income tax, or the VAT on my bike tyres"
"But but but but but..."
"The purpose of public transport is to transport the public"
"But that doesn't make money"
"Neither do roads, yet we all pay for them, even if we don't directly use them"
"but but but but"
"Yes, shift your butt, this is the bike space, there's plenty of other seats on the train, see, this sign here, is says cycle priority. I don't even speak $localLanguage and I know that".

This brings us to the whole function of trains, and their timetabling. If we are to see a widespread move from private cars and planes to trains, we are going to need to change the paradigm underwhich they are run. Sure your capacity numbers say one HS train ever 2 hours between $city1 and $city4 via $city2 and $city3 is cost effective. But the reality is, if the trains are actually every 30 minutes, or ideally every 15 minutes, then the equation moves from "Well the train is easier, but I don't want to wait 110 minutes for the next one, so I'll just drive. In an ideal world, local trains would run at least every 15 minutes, with intercity trains at least every 30 minutes, with really popular routes every 10 minutes or so (Utrecht Amsterdam is moving to 1 train every 10 minutes).

Ticketing needs to be transparent, and affordable. It should be clear that if a to b is longer than c to d, then a to b is more expensive. It should also be that a return ticket is between 190 and 200% the price of a single. If a single is €5, then a return should be about €9.20-€10. I would also abolish all advance tickets, they are just a tax on the unfortunate, what's that your gran just fell over and is in hospital and you need to get to the other end of the country to look after your other gran, tough, as you didn't plan this 6 months in advance then it's gonna cost you £600. No fuck that. I should be able to arrive at the station 5 mins before the train, buy the ticket, and get on. Simple. The current UK pricing model on returns is stupid, it discourages trip chaining, and disproportionately disadvantages women over men.

I'd also suggest there should be an easy subscription model, say €95 per month, gets you unlimited travel.

I do not agree with free public transport tho.

And finally the trains need to run pretty damn late, with all night services between major population centres.

J

PS Can you see where the quixotic in my name comes from?
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #185 on: October 07, 2019, 06:44:11 pm »
As an alternative way of putting bikes on trains, I once sent a bike as an unaccompanied railway parcel when moving house in Poland. It was ridiculously cheap and ridiculously easy, but it was also ridiculously long ago when trains had guards vans (1999).
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #186 on: October 07, 2019, 06:45:49 pm »
It should also be that a return ticket is between 190 and 200% the price of a single. If a single is €5, then a return should be about €9.20-€10.
What reason do you have for saying that?
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #187 on: October 07, 2019, 06:55:18 pm »
What reason do you have for saying that?

Trip chaining.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #188 on: October 07, 2019, 06:55:48 pm »
It should also be that a return ticket is between 190 and 200% the price of a single. If a single is €5, then a return should be about €9.20-€10.
What reason do you have for saying that?

Discourages triangular (other non-out-and-back geometries are available) journeys, which mean people will prefer to use cars for non-commute travel.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #189 on: October 07, 2019, 07:06:30 pm »
Discourages triangular (other non-out-and-back geometries are available) journeys, which mean people will prefer to use cars for non-commute travel.

It's called trip chaining, and it's done more by women than men. CCP discusses it at length in her book (https://amzn.to/2Kpf2Qy).

This is one of the things I love about the Dutch OV chipkaart system. There are no returns, just singles. For everything that isn't trains, you pay €0.96 to check in, then about €0.11 per km, if you get off one vehicle and get on another, as long as you check back in again within 35 minutes, it sees it as one journey, and you don't pay the €0.96, just the €0.11. Say you want to do multiple errands, pharmacy to pick up drugs, AH to pick up food, across to kruidvat for toiletries, and then Gamma on the way home to pick up some plants, you end up with journeys of about €1.27, €0.21, €0.17, €0.11, as each one is just a short hop. Trains are a special case I've not quite worked out the pricing model on, but it's a similar check in + distance calculation. Usefully, because it's just one system, if you take a tram to the station in Amsterdam, then get a train to Utrecht, then get on a bus, if the connection is quick enough, as it's less than 35 minutes since you checked out of the tram, the bus in Utrecht is seen as a continuation of the journey.

The system isn't perfect, it could do with a daily cap (like Oyster does), but it's a really effective system that makes trip chaining a breeze.

I keep pondering how long I can go on a single check in with just the overstap at each connection...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #190 on: October 07, 2019, 07:21:22 pm »
Okay, but why does that mean returns should be 190-200% the price of a single? You've just given an alternative model that doesn't follow that – not selling returns at all – but which you seem to think allows trip chaining and is acceptable. It also has the advantage of pricing each leg at the tariff applicable when it's travelled, whereas a return made with one leg at peak hours and one at off-peak will have the peak fare applied to the whole ticket.

Another way to look at the question of return fares: a single from Bristol to Bath is £8, day return is £8.10. Bristol to Gloucester is £9.90, return £10. (These are local-to-me examples that I know of, many others can be found.) Does this mean a return should be around £16 and £19 respectively? Or do you think the single price would actually drop to £4 and £5?

A third way to look at it is that triangular tickets (and probably rectangular ones too) are already possible on British trains. Unusual and not commonly asked for, might even fluster the staff (this itself is probably at least as big an issue) but possible.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #191 on: October 07, 2019, 07:29:29 pm »
Okay, but why does that mean returns should be 190-200% the price of a single? You've just given an alternative model that doesn't follow that – not selling returns at all – but which you seem to think allows trip chaining and is acceptable. It also has the advantage of pricing each leg at the tariff applicable when it's travelled, whereas a return made with one leg at peak hours and one at off-peak will have the peak fare applied to the whole ticket.

If the cost of a return is 200% the price of a single, that would mean that a return is the same as 2 singles. The ~190% is like the Dutch system with a checkin cost, and then a price per unit distance.

Quote
Another way to look at the question of return fares: a single from Bristol to Bath is £8, day return is £8.10. Bristol to Gloucester is £9.90, return £10. (These are local-to-me examples that I know of, many others can be found.) Does this mean a return should be around £16 and £19 respectively? Or do you think the single price would actually drop to £4 and £5?

I would drop it to £4 rather than double the single.

Quote
A third way to look at it is that triangular tickets (and probably rectangular ones too) are already possible on British trains. Unusual and not commonly asked for, might even fluster the staff (this itself is probably at least as big an issue) but possible.

I'm a train geek, I've travelled far and wide, I've picked up many of the idiosyncrasies of the UK ticket system, but I've never been able to successfully buy a triangular ticket in the UK. It was usually cheaper to stack returns and make an L shape rather than a triangle.

So, peak rate. Guess what, I'm going to continue to be really radical here. GET RID OF IT. If you have to use pricing models to discourage people travelling at a set time, it means you're not running enough trains/trams/metros/buses. Run more.

The way the Dutch trains deal with it there is no peak rate. It's the same cost all day. But you cay a discount card that is €60 per year, that gets you 40% off off peak trains. When they first came up with it, off peak was defined as after 0900. Meaning that your return home from work was at 40% off, but your way to work was full price. They changed that a couple of years back, so now it's 100% in the evening peak too. Fortunately if you continue to renew one on the old terms, they can't change it so my discount card I've had for over a decade is on the old system so it's cheap after 0900. Really useful.

But I'd rather it was just the same price all day. Note buses/metro/tram are the same price irregardless of time of day.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #192 on: October 07, 2019, 07:40:28 pm »
Buses, and arguably many trains on commuter lines, have another way of regulating demand at peak times: standing room only!
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #193 on: October 07, 2019, 07:43:49 pm »
Okay, but why does that mean returns should be 190-200% the price of a single? You've just given an alternative model that doesn't follow that – not selling returns at all – but which you seem to think allows trip chaining and is acceptable. It also has the advantage of pricing each leg at the tariff applicable when it's travelled, whereas a return made with one leg at peak hours and one at off-peak will have the peak fare applied to the whole ticket.

If the cost of a return is 200% the price of a single, that would mean that a return is the same as 2 singles. The ~190% is like the Dutch system with a checkin cost, and then a price per unit distance.
It means it's the same price. It doesn't mean it's the same thing in terms of flexibility, validity, break of travel, etc.

Quote
Quote
Another way to look at the question of return fares: a single from Bristol to Bath is £8, day return is £8.10. Bristol to Gloucester is £9.90, return £10. (These are local-to-me examples that I know of, many others can be found.) Does this mean a return should be around £16 and £19 respectively? Or do you think the single price would actually drop to £4 and £5?

I would drop it to £4 rather than double the single.
I know you would! But what do you think Mark Hopwood would do?
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #194 on: October 07, 2019, 07:47:14 pm »
I know you would! But what do you think Mark Hopwood would do?

Who?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #195 on: October 07, 2019, 07:48:58 pm »
British train tickets are usually valid via a surprisingly wide variety of routes, so a return to the furthest point of the triangle may well be valid via the third point.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #196 on: October 07, 2019, 07:50:04 pm »
British train tickets are usually valid via a surprisingly wide variety of routes, so a return to the furthest point of the triangle may well be valid via the third point.

Except when it isn't... usually if it's a via London or not option.

Canterbury to Brighton via London is a lot more expensive than Canterbury to Brighton via Rye...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #197 on: October 07, 2019, 08:12:25 pm »
I know you would! But what do you think Mark Hopwood would do?

Who?

J
I think we could have said the same about CCP! MH the MD is this man: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22016.msg270638#msg270638
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #198 on: October 07, 2019, 08:14:44 pm »
I think we could have said the same about CCP! MH the MD is this man: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22016.msg270638#msg270638

I did at least provide a link to CCP's book, and I only called her CCP as I can't spell her name...

Given the ideas I've outlined above, what makes you think I'd expect a person like this to have any say in our transport pricing and timetable policy?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Bikes on Class 800 trains (GWR)
« Reply #199 on: October 07, 2019, 08:23:28 pm »
Yeah but CCP is just the latest term you've dropped in without explanation! Anyway, he has a say because that's his job, just as presumably Roger van Boxtel does (yeah, I looked him up  :D : https://www.ns.nl/en/about-ns/who-are-we/raad-van-bestuur.html ). Or like Peter Parker did back way back (no, not Spider Man [or should that be Spiderman?]. Peter Parker was MD of British Rail back in the 1980s, his name has stuck in my memory because I remember having to write something about him in an English lesson. No, I can't remember what it was about.)
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.