Author Topic: Shared use paths close passing  (Read 5144 times)

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2018, 03:53:22 pm »
...
Answer is to slow down.

The best advice in this topic.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2018, 03:56:31 pm »
Can't see an Amsterdam one.

As in the picture doesn't load, or you can't see in the picture what the floating tram stop is?

J
The Amsterdam picture doesn't load up (but thanks for the link).

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2018, 03:57:46 pm »
Thanks. The big difference I see (now!) between the Amsterdam and British designs is that in Amsterdam, the bike path goes between the stop and the road – or rather, the tracks – whereas in Britain, it always (as far as I've seen) goes behind the stop. So in NL you have to cross the bike lane to get between tram and stop, whereas in GB you have to cross the bikes to get between bus stop and pavement. That is, the UK design would appear to allow the shelter to function as a sort of 'vestibule' between modes of transport (bus and foot). There's also the point that the NL bike path is a straight line, incentivising fast riding! OTOH there appears to be better differentiation between pavement and cyclepath in NL.

Aye. This is not a reference design not all floating stops in .nl follow the same pattern, if you look the one on the near side of the picture has the tram shelter on the platform for example. But yes, it is a flawed design in this instance IMHO.

Something makes me think there is little incentive for Gemente Amsterdam, or GVB to fix it.

Interestingly, since this street view car has gone down there. The road where the street view car is, has been made into a fietsstraat. Which means they paint it red, and put a couple of bits of paint saying motor vehicles are guests on this bit of road. The idea is a good one, as at rush hour in the evening, the volume of cyclists on this stretch is insane, and in about 200m turnwise along the road, you hit Leidseplien which is closed to private motorvehicles. What they haven't fixed is the annoying sod who parks their electric car about 100m turnwise from the position linked above, and does so with the charging connector sticking out into the fietspad, but I've ranted elsewhere about the poor design of EV charging connectors...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2018, 03:59:36 pm »
...
Answer is to slow down.

The best advice in this topic.
That's true. But impaitient people on bikes (just like their counterparts in motorised vehicles)
always want to be moving 'at speed' and not wanting anything to slow their progress.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2018, 03:59:55 pm »
Thanks. The big difference I see (now!) between the Amsterdam and British designs is that in Amsterdam, the bike path goes between the stop and the road – or rather, the tracks – whereas in Britain, it always (as far as I've seen) goes behind the stop. So in NL you have to cross the bike lane to get between tram and stop, whereas in GB you have to cross the bikes to get between bus stop and pavement. That is, the UK design would appear to allow the shelter to function as a sort of 'vestibule' between modes of transport (bus and foot). There's also the point that the NL bike path is a straight line, incentivising fast riding! OTOH there appears to be better differentiation between pavement and cyclepath in NL.

Hang on, surely only the British design qualifies as 'floating'?

The Amsterdam example is just a tram shelter out of the way at the back of the footway, much as a British bus shelter usually is - the difference being that the tram is on rails (and blocked by a kerb) so it can't just pull in and block the cycle lane to stop as British buses normally do.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2018, 04:00:45 pm »
...
Answer is to slow down.

The best advice in this topic.
That's true. But impaitient people on bikes (just like their counterparts in motorised vehicles)
always want to be moving 'at speed' and not wanting anything to slow their progress.

More relevantly, slowing down doesn't actually do much to prevent pedestrians startling (and potentially leaping into your path, or shouting at you for using/not using a bell) when they realise you're there.  It just trades stability of your bike for more time to react, and reduces the severity of any resultant collision.

Slowing down is entirely reasonable, but isn't a complete answer.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2018, 04:06:03 pm »
Thanks. The big difference I see (now!) between the Amsterdam and British designs is that in Amsterdam, the bike path goes between the stop and the road – or rather, the tracks – whereas in Britain, it always (as far as I've seen) goes behind the stop. So in NL you have to cross the bike lane to get between tram and stop, whereas in GB you have to cross the bikes to get between bus stop and pavement. That is, the UK design would appear to allow the shelter to function as a sort of 'vestibule' between modes of transport (bus and foot). There's also the point that the NL bike path is a straight line, incentivising fast riding! OTOH there appears to be better differentiation between pavement and cyclepath in NL.

Aye. This is not a reference design not all floating stops in .nl follow the same pattern, if you look the one on the near side of the picture has the tram shelter on the platform for example. But yes, it is a flawed design in this instance IMHO.

Something makes me think there is little incentive for Gemente Amsterdam, or GVB to fix it.

Interestingly, since this street view car has gone down there. The road where the street view car is, has been made into a fietsstraat. Which means they paint it red, and put a couple of bits of paint saying motor vehicles are guests on this bit of road. The idea is a good one, as at rush hour in the evening, the volume of cyclists on this stretch is insane, and in about 200m turnwise along the road, you hit Leidseplien which is closed to private motorvehicles. What they haven't fixed is the annoying sod who parks their electric car about 100m turnwise from the position linked above, and does so with the charging connector sticking out into the fietspad, but I've ranted elsewhere about the poor design of EV charging connectors...

J
What does "turnwise" mean?  ???
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2018, 04:07:22 pm »
What does "turnwise" mean?  ???

Opposite of 'widdershins'.  Discworld equivalent of 'east' and 'west', which IIRC is being used as a sort of more logical polar coordinate system for directions in Amsterdam.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2018, 04:07:58 pm »
Thanks. The big difference I see (now!) between the Amsterdam and British designs is that in Amsterdam, the bike path goes between the stop and the road – or rather, the tracks – whereas in Britain, it always (as far as I've seen) goes behind the stop. So in NL you have to cross the bike lane to get between tram and stop, whereas in GB you have to cross the bikes to get between bus stop and pavement. That is, the UK design would appear to allow the shelter to function as a sort of 'vestibule' between modes of transport (bus and foot). There's also the point that the NL bike path is a straight line, incentivising fast riding! OTOH there appears to be better differentiation between pavement and cyclepath in NL.

Hang on, surely only the British design qualifies as 'floating'?

The Amsterdam example is just a tram shelter out of the way at the back of the footway, much as a British bus shelter usually is - the difference being that the tram is on rails (and blocked by a kerb) so it can't just pull in and block the cycle lane to stop as British buses normally do.
That was my thought too, but I guess I'm not 100% certain of the definition, if there is one, of a floating stop.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2018, 04:09:25 pm »
What does "turnwise" mean?  ???

Opposite of 'widdershins'
So "clockwise". Rather nonintuitive, as things can be turned in either direction – and in this context, it sounded more as if it referred to a turn in the round.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2018, 04:10:56 pm »
What does "turnwise" mean?  ???

Unhelpful answer: opposite of widdershins...

More helpful answer: Amsterdam is shaped like a spiders web or a ship's wheel. Because most of the roads going round the city follow the curves of the canals, directions like north, east, south, & west, can get very confusing. So, blatantly stealing from the disk world, a number geekier residents have started using directions based on hubwards (towards central station), rimwards (opposite direction out towards the ring road), turnwise (clockwise), and widdershins (anti-clockwise). This results in directions from one bar to another something like "Follow that canal 3 bridges turnwise, then go out one canal rimwards"

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #86 on: October 25, 2018, 04:12:31 pm »
...
Answer is to slow down.

The best advice in this topic.
That's true. But impaitient people on bikes (just like their counterparts in motorised vehicles)
always want to be moving 'at speed' and not wanting anything to slow their progress.

More relevantly, slowing down doesn't actually do much to prevent pedestrians startling (and potentially leaping into your path, or shouting at you for using/not using a bell) when they realise you're there.  It just trades stability of your bike for more time to react, and reduces the severity of any resultant collision.

Slowing down is entirely reasonable, but isn't a complete answer.
Stability? Maybe recumbents are less stable at low speed, but most bikes are stable at walking speed for a short distance. And more to the point, the cyclists most likely to riding at speeds where speed itself is a factor in causing a collision are probably going 20mph+ (whether for fun, strava segments or simply not being late).
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #87 on: October 25, 2018, 04:14:36 pm »
What does "turnwise" mean?  ???

Unhelpful answer: opposite of widdershins...

More helpful answer: Amsterdam is shaped like a spiders web or a ship's wheel. Because most of the roads going round the city follow the curves of the canals, directions like north, east, south, & west, can get very confusing. So, blatantly stealing from the disk world, a number geekier residents have started using directions based on hubwards (towards central station), rimwards (opposite direction out towards the ring road), turnwise (clockwise), and widdershins (anti-clockwise). This results in directions from one bar to another something like "Follow that canal 3 bridges turnwise, then go out one canal rimwards"

J
Oh, so Amsterdam is based on Sczecin!
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #88 on: October 25, 2018, 04:16:33 pm »
What does "turnwise" mean?  ???

Unhelpful answer: opposite of widdershins...

More helpful answer: Amsterdam is shaped like a spiders web or a ship's wheel. Because most of the roads going round the city follow the curves of the canals, directions like north, east, south, & west, can get very confusing. So, blatantly stealing from the disk world, a number geekier residents have started using directions based on hubwards (towards central station), rimwards (opposite direction out towards the ring road), turnwise (clockwise), and widdershins (anti-clockwise). This results in directions from one bar to another something like "Follow that canal 3 bridges turnwise, then go out one canal rimwards"

J
Oh, so Amsterdam is based on Sczecin!
Stability? Maybe recumbents are less stable at low speed, but most bikes are stable at walking speed for a short distance. And more to the point, the cyclists most likely to riding at speeds where speed itself is a factor in causing a collision are probably going 20mph+ (whether for fun, strava segments or simply not being late).

The actual issue you run into with a bike culture where everyone is cycling and maintenance of the bikes is considered optional, slowing down is not always an option, you're in a critical mass of cyclists all moving at the same speed. I've had issues in the past where I slammed on the brakes to stop for a hazard, and it resulted in those behind me crashing in to me. I've even had this where I stopped for a red light, which came as a surprise to those behind me, resulting in a pile up.

Not everyone has good slow speed handling skills, and not everyone has good enough slow speed skills for a group in a confined space. You see this a lot at traffic lights when everyone wobbles around when starting.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #89 on: October 25, 2018, 04:16:55 pm »
What does "turnwise" mean?  ???

Opposite of 'widdershins'
So "clockwise". Rather nonintuitive, as things can be turned in either direction – and in this context, it sounded more as if it referred to a turn in the round.

Yeah, but planets (even magical flat ones) generally turn in a consistent direction[1].  News of this may even have reached the BBC graphics department.


[1] Unlike clocks, which should logically[2] go the opposite way in the southern hemisphere (or dark side of the disc).
[2] For values of logic that assume a clock has hands rotating on a face, rather than the time written on it.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #90 on: October 25, 2018, 04:18:50 pm »
What does "turnwise" mean?  ???

Opposite of 'widdershins'
So "clockwise". Rather nonintuitive, as things can be turned in either direction – and in this context, it sounded more as if it referred to a turn in the round.

Yeah, but planets (even magical flat ones) generally turn in a consistent direction[1].  News of this may even have reached the BBC graphics department.


[1] Unlike clocks, which should logically[2] go the opposite way in the southern hemisphere (or dark side of the disc).
[2] For values of logic that assume a clock has hands rotating on a face, rather than the time written on it.

Indeed, but the context needs to be established.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2018, 04:20:40 pm »
What does "turnwise" mean?  ???

Unhelpful answer: opposite of widdershins...

More helpful answer: Amsterdam is shaped like a spiders web or a ship's wheel. Because most of the roads going round the city follow the curves of the canals, directions like north, east, south, & west, can get very confusing. So, blatantly stealing from the disk world, a number geekier residents have started using directions based on hubwards (towards central station), rimwards (opposite direction out towards the ring road), turnwise (clockwise), and widdershins (anti-clockwise). This results in directions from one bar to another something like "Follow that canal 3 bridges turnwise, then go out one canal rimwards"

J
Oh, so Amsterdam is based on Sczecin!
Stability? Maybe recumbents are less stable at low speed, but most bikes are stable at walking speed for a short distance. And more to the point, the cyclists most likely to riding at speeds where speed itself is a factor in causing a collision are probably going 20mph+ (whether for fun, strava segments or simply not being late).

The actual issue you run into with a bike culture where everyone is cycling and maintenance of the bikes is considered optional, slowing down is not always an option, you're in a critical mass of cyclists all moving at the same speed. I've had issues in the past where I slammed on the brakes to stop for a hazard, and it resulted in those behind me crashing in to me. I've even had this where I stopped for a red light, which came as a surprise to those behind me, resulting in a pile up.

Not everyone has good slow speed handling skills, and not everyone has good enough slow speed skills for a group in a confined space. You see this a lot at traffic lights when everyone wobbles around when starting.

J
Yeah, I think the issues in a Dutch rush hour and a British daytime (let alone evening) are going to be different.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #92 on: October 25, 2018, 04:23:32 pm »
Consistent direction but which direction that is does depend on where on the planet you are standing. (Assuming an approximately spherical planet)

The non-discworld opposite of widdershins is deosil but that just means sunwise so we’re left with the same problem.
"No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everybody on the couch."

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #93 on: October 25, 2018, 04:23:49 pm »
...
Answer is to slow down.

The best advice in this topic.
That's true. But impaitient people on bikes (just like their counterparts in motorised vehicles)
always want to be moving 'at speed' and not wanting anything to slow their progress.

More relevantly, slowing down doesn't actually do much to prevent pedestrians startling (and potentially leaping into your path, or shouting at you for using/not using a bell) when they realise you're there.  It just trades stability of your bike for more time to react, and reduces the severity of any resultant collision.

Slowing down is entirely reasonable, but isn't a complete answer.
Stability? Maybe recumbents are less stable at low speed, but most bikes are stable at walking speed for a short distance. And more to the point, the cyclists most likely to riding at speeds where speed itself is a factor in causing a collision are probably going 20mph+ (whether for fun, strava segments or simply not being late).

It's not about the bike (on the assumption that anyone riding a twitchy road bike or low recumbent or whatever probably has the balance skills to compensate).  The average YACFer will be extremely competent at cycling at walking speed.  The average shared-use-path user, much less so.  Particularly in .nl where muggles actually ride bicycles for transport.

I remember crashing into a pedestrian while following behind them at low speed on a bridleway when I was a child (not sure how old, but under 12).  They moved sideways unexpectedly, I grabbed a handful of brakes, and fell off my bike into them.  As an adult, I know to leave more room and expect them to be unpredictable, but I'm also much better at controlling bikes now.

(Where's the thread on that safety-of-e-bikes research?  It concluded that a major hazard was through making cycling accessible to people who wouldn't otherwise cycle, and potentially lacking in cycling experience, a significant proportion of e-bike accidents were due to loss of control at low speed.)
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #94 on: October 25, 2018, 04:28:30 pm »
Dunno where that thread is, but some time ago a friend borrowed an e-bike from [either her employer or the City Council, I can't remember]. She's a lifelong utility cyclist now with dodgy knees, but concluded after a month's trial the e-bike was not good for her as it was so heavy and high in CoG that she was dropping it at stand still.

However, one thing she doesn't do is close-pass walkers on shared-use paths...
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #95 on: October 25, 2018, 04:34:00 pm »
Dunno where that thread is, but some time ago a friend borrowed an e-bike from [either her employer or the City Council, I can't remember]. She's a lifelong utility cyclist now with dodgy knees, but concluded after a month's trial the e-bike was not good for her as it was so heavy and high in CoG that she was dropping it at stand still.

That's definitely an issue with e-bikes.  They're necessarily quite heavy, and on many the weight distribution doesn't help (battery on the rear rack above a rear hub motor, for example).  The better-engineered ones in that regard are of course £BloodyHellHowMuch
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2018, 04:40:29 pm »
Anyway, as for close-passing walkers, it's reasonably simple:  Try to get their attention and let them get all the OMG! A bike! leaping out of their system before you get close enough to be a hazard.  Given the distance that polite noises carry, this usually involves riding relatively slowly.

If you can't give them the width, children and other animals[1] should be passed dead slow, as they'll probably dive for your wheel at the last second.

That leaves you with the hearing-impaired and [ear]phone zombies.  They're probably going to flinch when they see you, so aim for as big a gap as possible (waiting as necessary to avoid additional hazards like chutney and mooring bollards), and pass at a speed that means it won't hurt too much if it all goes wrong.

Accept that as the out-group member and operator of the more hazardous vehicle, it's all your fault.

And if you can't do that, don't cycle on shared-use paths.


[1] With the exception of the Aston ASBO Geese, for whom ramming speed is entirely appropriate.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #97 on: October 27, 2018, 12:31:15 pm »
Last night on a straight fairly narrow path; wide enough for 3 cyclists with a small gap in between them. It's after sunset and dark and the path has dim lighting.

I'm riding well to the left to give max when passing and I see 2 cyclist coming, one in the middle of the path and other to their left, both have got similar bright dazzling lights.

At almost the passing point, there's another cyclist with no lights almost dead ahead of me, ie there's actually three riders spread out across the path. As I'm almost at the left edge of the path, I didn't hit the unlit rider and passed extremely close.

I don't know if it was a group of 3 riders or it was one unlit cyclist overtaking two riding together.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #98 on: October 27, 2018, 09:55:35 pm »
That one leads into a related rant: Cyclists who, when faced with an oncoming cyclist, abandon the keep-left rule as soon as it's not a road.  I'll accept that some cyclists (most children, and some off-road leisure riders) probably don't cycle on the road and haven't internalised this rule properly.  I'll also make allowances for FOREIGNS whose collision-avoidance habits are calibrated to work in ABROAD).  But seriously, commuter types, WTF?
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #99 on: October 27, 2018, 11:15:41 pm »
That one leads into a related rant: Cyclists who, when faced with an oncoming cyclist, abandon the keep-left rule as soon as it's not a road.  I'll accept that some cyclists (most children, and some off-road leisure riders) probably don't cycle on the road and haven't internalised this rule properly.  I'll also make allowances for FOREIGNS whose collision-avoidance habits are calibrated to work in ABROAD).  But seriously, commuter types, WTF?


Just to make things awkward on the Milton Keynes Redways, which are shared use cycleways, so pedestrians have priority. There is the Redway Code, that says cyclists should stay on the left but pedestrians stay on the right.
Some cyclists and pedestrians follow the rules. Others don't.
It's OK approaching pedestrians from behind with an oncoming cyclist or oncoming pedestrians. I just sit behind the pedestrians going my way, whichever side of the path they happen to be on, then wait until the oncoming users have passed before I overtake.
Trouble is that hardly anyone does the same, so when I'm approaching oncoming cyclists and pedestrians it sometimes gets messy and the rules don't make it any better even if they are followed.
It also gets messy on the sharp bends where you can't keep to one side to get around because they are not engineered properly for wheeled vehicles like roads are. The bollards at junctions being placed where you normally ride don't help either.