Author Topic: Shared use paths close passing  (Read 5134 times)

CAMRAMan

  • Formerly A Warwickshire Lad
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2018, 05:12:02 pm »
A long time ago, I went to Cannock Chase to ride the tracks there with a flatmate who didn't ride often. I descended very carefully making sure I slowed as I passed peds, especially those with their backs to me. He just flew by them at full speed - which was pretty fast, as the descents are steep - without a care for their safety and not knowing if they were aware he was approaching. When I said he should be more considerate, he thought I was being too cautious. I never rode with him after that.

I think the paths there are separated now so MTB riders have their own paths and that's no bad thing.
Haggerty F, Haggerty R, Tomkins, Noble, Carrick, Robson, Crapper, Dewhurst, Macintyre, Treadmore, Davitt.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2018, 05:18:11 pm »
Well, of course, I'm making an assumption. I don't have psychic powers. But I'm evidently not the only person that perceives a bell ring in such a way. As for the ding-ding-move dance, it's not so much a case of having to move, the ding says 'get out of my way.'

You MUST have psychic powers - you are quite certain of what people mean when they ring their bell! And the other people with psychic powers back you up  :thumbsup:

The thing is, a bell isn't like the human voice. You ding it, or you don't ding it. There is no inflection, no aggresive tone, no impatience - with most you can't even control the volume. It's just a ding -  beyond that you hear what you choose to hear!

Clearly we've gone full circle here and will have to agree-to-disagree.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2018, 05:49:40 pm »
I have to admit I don't have a bell and prefer a cheery 'hello' to let people know I'm there. I also slow to pass when there's no room for a wide berth. Apart from anything else, I don't want to get pushed off...

QG, I'm not sure that blaming the skateboarder for skating in curves really works - it sounds as though you had time to see how he was rolling and perhaps could have anticipated him coming back across you?

I had an odd situation with a couple of chaps riding home on mtb's a few weeks ago. I was approaching from behind and they turned left down the road I was also turning left down. I went wide and started to pass them as they decided to wander across the road towards the backstreet on the right. We avoided contact and a few apologies all around and went our ways happy enough.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2018, 06:08:04 pm »

QG, I'm not sure that blaming the skateboarder for skating in curves really works - it sounds as though you had time to see how he was rolling and perhaps could have anticipated him coming back across you?

Inline skater. You have to question if it is responsible to slalom across one of the main thoroughfare's of a city, at Rush hour. It's just bellendery.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Baron Brymbo von Pickelhaube

  • Adel auf dem Radel
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2018, 06:09:39 pm »
Funny this should come up.  Baronin von P. and I visited Bath this weekend, staying in Monkton Combe. 

On Saturday we walked the Bath Two Tunnels circuit anti-clockwise into Bath.  It was pleasant and the cyclists were mostly well-behaved and some gave warning of approach by bell or call.  There were quite a few what appeared to be occasional leisure cyclists (maybe hirers) and you had to be aware of these because they did not appear to be completely in control of their vehicles.

On Sunday we walked the circuit clockwise into Bath, actually through the tunnels.  It was unpleasant due to the cyclists and there were several close passes, most unannounced, and some very fast for the conditions.  These close passes even occurred when we walked one behind the other and not side-by-side.

There were a couple of exemplary riders, and you've guessed it, they fitted the audax/cycle tourist/CTC stereotype and not the lycra-lout racers who appear to have confused the sustrans route with Hillingdon.  Also, our anti-clockwise route was mostly toepath and clockwise there was a lot more of what appeared to be former railway.
The present is a foreign country: they do things differently here.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2018, 06:13:27 pm »
I note that audax/cycle tourist/CTC stereotype-conforming cyclists will be easily detected as they approach in tunnels, because they're the ones who have lights.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2018, 06:25:05 pm »
I'm a shouter.
Sometimes its 'Excuse me please', sometimes it is 'Ding! Ding!'

The key to shouting is getting the volume / distance right.
Too far away, and they won't hear you.
Too close, and they will, like horses, be spooked - And bellowing is seldom well received.
If their ears are full of Sennheiser (other makes of headphone are available) you are onto a loser anyway.

Bell ringing?
Best left to the campanologists - otherwise it is just I'm entitled rudeness.


Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2018, 06:51:07 pm »
I tend to use a spot of freewheel, which about half of people hear; then an "excuse me" or "on your right" and leave bell tinging to the unresponsive folk that are walking down the middle of the path (those two seem to correlate). Mostly because bell tinging is a bit "beep beep" ish while talking is a bit more personal. Then again, my shared use path cycling isn't so long that my need for speed is great so I'm not yelling at anyone, and I see many of the same people again so a degree of being polite is needed.  O:-)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2018, 07:31:13 pm »
I was once witness to a very near head on collision followed by a very near pile up in the Staple Hill tunnel between Bristol and Bath when a bunch of fastish cyclists (I can't remember now if it was a CTC ride or a club event) moved to overtake a couple of slower cyclists having totally misjudged the speed and distance of an oncoming cyclist due to their extremely bright front light.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2018, 07:36:57 pm »
I can't help feeling the sound of the bell makes a difference.  Cheapy ping bells sound urgent (unless you only ring them once, in which case they sound like tinnitus).  A deeper bring-bring or ding-dong sounds more cheerful.  A bulb hooter is sufficiently silly that it's hard to take it seriously.  But maybe I'm reading too much into it because I'm a cyclist.
I can't remember now whether it was ChrisN, iddu, Sam or possibly Rogerzilla who remarked on Saturday that my bell (a Lion Bell) sounds like a receptionist's desk. "Dingggggggg!" "Fawlty Towers, how may I help you?"
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2018, 07:47:21 pm »
I'm really quite upset by Ian's attitude.  I normally really enjoy his posts.  Of course he is presumptious and stereotyping!  I ring my bell to let people know there is a cyclist coming, so that they are not shocked, or suddenly veer sideways.  They very rarely even need to move off the line they are already on - I'm just letting them know I'm coming and I am totally unaggressive.  However, Ian, if you want to come and walk up near Rochdale, please put a target on your back so I know it's you.  There'll be no bell - and no bloody lifebelt, either!

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2018, 08:02:58 pm »
Sorry, but you write that with the perspective of a cyclist, not a pedestrian. They don't know the meaning of your bell ring or whether you are considerate or a speed-racer that wants me out of the way. Sadly, all it takes is a few instances of the latter and, well, that's why people have a bad impression of cyclists. I appreciate that isn't you. It isn't me either. But it is, alas, how people interpret these things. Most drivers who give you a close pass will claim they 'gave you plenty of room' – chances are, many of them think they did, but the perspective of the cyclist in the circumstance is very different than that from the enclosed comfort of a driving seat.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2018, 08:26:47 pm »
Sure, Ian.  Plenty of cyclists piss me off, too.  They are the ones I remember.  Plenty of headphone-wearing and/or dog-wielding peds. piss me off, too - but loads don't.  I was only joking about the canal - I have my life-saving badges, so you'll be fine! 

I think it might help on a dual-use path (the Rochdale Canal is part of one of the longest NCN routes in the country - NCN 66) if both types of user used the paths as if they knew the other type of user existed and also had rights.  I know as a pedestrian or cyclist I don't like to be surprised by a cyclist, though I can cope with having to negotiate a ped who thoughtlessly, though probably not deliberately, walks in such a way as to block all progress to anyone else in either direction.

peter

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2018, 09:57:10 pm »
What would help would be if all users would stick to a consistent side of the path.  Doesn't work on towpaths, though, as everyone wants to avoid the water, except when cyclists are busy avoiding chutney or overhanging branches, or when dogs are being emptied.

I think the only way to reasonably enforce that behaviour is with segregated pedestrian and cyclist infrastructure, and sufficient volume of cycle traffic to discourage the pedestrians from wandering in the cycle lane.  And if there were room for that, it probably wouldn't be a shared-use path in the first place.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

MikeFromLFE

  • Previously known as Millimole
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2018, 09:01:38 am »
I cycle a fair bit on my local towpath as part of my volunteering with The Canal & River Trust, it also means I get to see what's going on too. By and large the interaction between cyclists and pedestrians works well. Where conflict occurs is in the bridge holes - too many riders ding their bell, in a 'get out of the way' fashion and then speed into the holes which are also a blind corner, where there is nowhere for a ped to actually go, except into the water. There is no difference between the type of rider who does this - I've seen family pootlers, and tourists do it. It's all very odd.

My most recent issue, which was completely atypical, and happened when I was not in my volunteer uniform (or I would have said strong words) was when I was cycling along a narrow bit of towpath, with a lock some 50 yards ahead. I was slowly following a 'slow jogger', waiting to pass her at the lock, when, you guessed it - ding ding, ding ding! I suspect that if I hadn't been there, the dinger would have forced the jogger into the swamp on the right, or the water on the left.
Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2018, 09:04:20 am »
Shared-use paths with a line down the middle and one side for bikes, the other for walkers, are useless. To work they'd have to be about four bikes wide – or two bikes and two pedestrians, which is much the same thing (in fact pedestrians can be wider than bikes bearing in mind things they push and carry). In practice the wide ones are maybe just about wide enough for three bikes, usually only two.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2018, 09:27:05 am »
Our local shared path is largely incompetent as a path. I’ve tried bells and ‘ding ding’ but what works best is ‘hi there, cyclist’.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2018, 01:56:58 pm »
I've found that the Hope freehub is the most useful device for pedestrian awareness.
The racket it makes can be heard far enough away that a pedestrian looks round wondering "hat the f--- is that" and also be far enough away to not imply a hurried need to get past; in other words they hear you a mile away and know you're there far enough in advance that all you need is a "Hi" or "Good morning" as you pass.

Having a coughing fit is another (unintentional) tactic that I've found often works but is sometimes misconstrued as a "get out the way"

Absolutely nothing works on the Tay Road bridge though as audibility is diabolic due to either traffic noise from the main carriageway or from the howling wind, usually both.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2018, 02:35:03 pm »
One of the worst issues is the floating tram stops, and people getting off the tram, paying attention to their phone, and walking out into the cycle path. If you shout a warning, and slam on the anchors, you can usually just about stop, but if you stop too fast, chances are the locals on bikes behind you will go into the back of you as their brakes aren't as effective...
Interesting that you find them such a bad situation, given they're one of the favourite bits of infrastructure that all the "go Dutch" type campaigns here in the UK are asking for, and a few have been installed now. Is bouncing off pedestrians worth it to avoid getting stuck between bus and kerb or between bus and car? Or are there other benefits in NL than those claimed here? (Or does the average omafooter just ride somewhat slower than you and have more time to slalom the peds?)
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2018, 05:34:49 pm »
Isn't the general point that by making cycle infra that's good enough that people actually use bikes, you turn car-vs-ped collisions into cycle-vs-ped collisions.  I know what I prefer to be hit by.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2018, 07:06:38 pm »
Isn't the general point that by making cycle infra that's good enough that people actually use bikes, you turn car-vs-ped collisions into cycle-vs-ped collisions.  I know what I prefer to be hit by.
Is this about the floating-tram-thingies? Either way, it's a good point that seems to get forgotten by ranty drivers-who-occasionally-walk-somewhere. :(
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2018, 07:16:54 pm »
Yeah, floating bus/tram stops are one feature of cycle infra that's designed to make cycling good enough that people actually want to use it.  Much better to cycle behind the stop, slowing down in case of lemmings, than to have to wait behind the bus or ride through the gathered bus queue.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

hondated

  • Love everything with two wheels
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2018, 09:46:39 pm »
I'm a shouter.
Sometimes its 'Excuse me please', sometimes it is 'Ding! Ding!'

The key to shouting is getting the volume / distance right.
Too far away, and they won't hear you.
Too close, and they will, like horses, be spooked - And bellowing is seldom well received.
If their ears are full of Sennheiser (other makes of headphone are available) you are onto a loser anyway.

Bell ringing?
Best left to the campanologists - otherwise it is just I'm entitled rudeness.
I,m a shouter too and do  it as politely as I can but...
Sometime ago now I was cycling along the cookoo trail East Sussex and had passed several people using this method without any problems. Until I met a belligerent old man, well one about my age walking his dog. After telling him I was about to pass he didnt attempt to move out of my way but thankfully there was enough space to pass anyway and has I did he shouted" get a bell ". Now given he never had his dog on a leash I responded by telling him to get his dog under control. His response was to call me the C word. Which immediately caused me to brake and remonstrate with him. Long story short each time I decided to just ride away from him he uttered the C word to me. Which of cause stopped me in my tracks again.
Finally knowing that it would be stupid to get into a fight with him I took my phone out and took a photo of him. He of cause didnt like me doing that and told me as much as well. To which I replied tough I have taken it. Thankfully he did not reply and I rode off with a smile on my face knowing he will always wonder what I did with the photo. Nothing yet !
So after this incident I thought about fitting a bell but given this was the only person I have ever had a problem with when it comes to riding past I have not bothered. Hopefully he now keeps his mouth shut when cyclists pass him.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2018, 10:00:40 pm »
I've very occasionally had people say I should use a bell after using my bell.  Which just goes to demonstrate the futility of it.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2018, 10:24:29 pm »
Interesting that you find them such a bad situation, given they're one of the favourite bits of infrastructure that all the "go Dutch" type campaigns here in the UK are asking for, and a few have been installed now. Is bouncing off pedestrians worth it to avoid getting stuck between bus and kerb or between bus and car? Or are there other benefits in NL than those claimed here? (Or does the average omafooter just ride somewhat slower than you and have more time to slalom the peds?)

No. There is nothing inherently wrong with floating tram stops. There is an issue with tourists who are not familiar with the road layouts of a foreign country failing to keep an adequate level of awareness. The people that are stepping out into the fietspad are invariably not locals.

J



--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/