Author Topic: Shared use paths close passing  (Read 5091 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2018, 10:46:05 pm »
Interesting that you find them such a bad situation, given they're one of the favourite bits of infrastructure that all the "go Dutch" type campaigns here in the UK are asking for, and a few have been installed now. Is bouncing off pedestrians worth it to avoid getting stuck between bus and kerb or between bus and car? Or are there other benefits in NL than those claimed here? (Or does the average omafooter just ride somewhat slower than you and have more time to slalom the peds?)

No. There is nothing inherently wrong with floating tram stops. There is an issue with tourists who are not familiar with the road layouts of a foreign country failing to keep an adequate level of awareness. The people that are stepping out into the fietspad are invariably not locals.

J
The ones who step out on to it here are locals! But even where they're not, that does suggest a failure of design, in that it's not obvious to all users what they're expected to do. And probably, at least in the British implementation, insufficient space for people waiting for the bus.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2018, 11:01:18 pm »
I rode part of the Camel Trail on Monday, with two 9yos and a 10yo. "Interesting" would probably cover it (herding cats likewise!). :)
Most cyclists and pedestrians were well behaved, though there were quite a few other kids, and kids make sticking on one side of the path somewhat complex. The only bell I heard was from my daughter (9). It seems a bit insistent to me, but when people look around and discover it's a kid they tend to smile. The only person I heard a complaint about was a lycra clad cyclist going much faster than the others.

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2018, 12:08:23 am »
On what I hope is a light-hearted note, I mentioned in an early post that I had only ever had one adverse reaction to using a bell (which I do from a reasonable distance).  That was a bloke, slightly worse for wear (common on canal banks near Manchester, which is why so many of them drown - that's not the light-hearted note, by the way) who said, as I passed, "You're the first fucking cyclist I've ever heard use a fucking bell!" which was an awful lot of words for someone in his state.  Excellent effort.

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2018, 06:26:16 am »
If you are close enough to say "excuse me" you are too close to use the bell. It is not one or the other it is both. Bell from far back so they know you are coming (I have a loud bellworks bell, so that I can use it from further back)

If there is no response to the bell, then excuse me - or "I'm just coming past on the left" when close.

I've never had a negative reaction to the bell, though I do still get occasional startles.

Speaking is usually required for headphone zombies (AND THEN SOMETIMES SHOUTING) or the elderly who don't hear the higher pitches of a bell.

Either way I always slow down almost to around double walking pace - more if there is a loose dog. Unless the ped has stopped and stepped off the path as some do - in which case I go faster to hold them up for less time.

Mostly I get a smile and thanks, and regardless give same in return.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2018, 08:48:17 am »
If there is no response to the bell, then excuse me - or "I'm just coming past on the left" when close.
Good to use a whole sentence like that, I reckon. If you reduce it to "On the left!" it's not clear, to those who aren't familiar with the phrase (ie most people) whether it means "There's something on your left" or "I'm coming past on your left" or "You should move left". And, just like "Car up/down" it's not even used with totally consistent meaning among cyclists.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2018, 09:06:55 am »
The National Dog Walkers Route 1 runs through my home town. If I'm on a bike with a bell, peds jump out of their skin when I ping it. If I'm on a bike without a bell and call out, they jump out of their skin. If I'm on my MTB and just avoid them completely by going on the grass, they jump..... You get the picture....
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2018, 09:43:40 am »
Is being nice so difficult?
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2018, 10:23:09 am »
I've had these levers attached to my handlebars. They're a pretty cool innovation. You pull them and the bike slows down. It amazing. Previously I'd have to yell GET OUT OF MY WAY! or go all campanological on their path-idling asses. Now I slow down and wish them a nice day, smile tolerantly at their meanderings kids and wayward dogs as they eventually step to one side, and let me get on my way. It's a whole new world, I tell you. All that previous shouting ARE YOU FUCKING DEAF? (and sometimes they were!) was making me rather hoarse. Rather than yell at tourists for not being au fait with the detail of our country, I can tell them the Queen lives over there and she makes tea for every visitor.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2018, 11:09:12 am »
Is being nice so difficult?

Yes. Yes it is you fucking dick.
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2018, 12:31:14 pm »
Now there is a post that seriously needs an emoticon (I Hope)

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2018, 12:43:40 pm »
I'll put some in for those in any doubt  :P :P :P :P ;D ;D ;D
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2018, 02:40:48 pm »
Just in case one's single polite "Ding!" is misinterpreted by pedestrians as insistent, impatient, or even meaning "Get out of my way!" I too have adopted a more sociable approach.

First a gentle "Excuse me" as I creep up alongside them.
Then more of an introduction. Perhaps "Good day - how are you?"
Then I try to engage them in more varied topics, such as the purpose of their journey, or the state of the surface which we are sharing, or the latest score achieved by our local sportsball team.

Unfortunately this is usually met with a stern, straight-ahead stare. or quite often
"Leave me alone, you fucking weirdo!"
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2018, 03:34:12 pm »
Just slow down to walking pace as you approach and pass the pedestrians.


fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2018, 03:57:45 pm »
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2018, 09:23:44 pm »
The ones who step out on to it here are locals! But even where they're not, that does suggest a failure of design, in that it's not obvious to all users what they're expected to do. And probably, at least in the British implementation, insufficient space for people waiting for the bus.

The concept of floating bus/tram stop is not inherently flawed. There are however implementation issues. If you compare this bus stop (in the UK I think)



With this tram stop in Amsterdam (the one on the far side of the road to the camera).



In the former case there is a fence, so getting off the bus you have to change direction to cross the cycle lane. Where as in this Dutch case, the tourists get off the tram, only a paved "platform" that is about 1-1.5m wide, and go straight across into the fietspad. Sticking a fence here to direct the pedestrians would be an potential solution. I ride this every day so I know to look for for the tram coming to a stop and try to read the crowd, tho not being a local, I had to learn this.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2018, 01:27:38 am »
Do you have to share the cycle way with motor scooters?

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2018, 07:58:05 am »
The fence is unusual in the new cycle-soup-highways with this being more common, with and without shelter. With shelter adds a danger point at the far end of the shelter, where vision is restricted and the path changes angle. Answer is to slow down.


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2018, 08:44:19 am »
Do you have to share the cycle way with motor scooters?

Amsterdam recently changed the rules so that brommers have to use the main traffic lane, not the fietspad. But for the rest of .nl, Brommers, Brommobile, kick scooters, mobility scooters, bakfiets, etc... All in the fietspad.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2018, 09:43:49 am »
We've got one with a fence in Bristol, although I think it was an addition after they built it.
https://goo.gl/maps/vgTN29f5kxp

It's also got a not-zebra crossing, as you see. I rarely ride along there so can't really say how well that particular one works, but I do feel it would be better with a wider pavement for bus passengers to wait on. The more general problem though is pedestrians simply walking or standing in the cycleway, not specifically at bus stops.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2018, 12:57:58 pm »
That latter is certainly the case near Manchester University.

Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2018, 01:53:40 pm »
The ones who step out on to it here are locals! But even where they're not, that does suggest a failure of design, in that it's not obvious to all users what they're expected to do. And probably, at least in the British implementation, insufficient space for people waiting for the bus.

The concept of floating bus/tram stop is not inherently flawed. There are however implementation issues. If you compare this bus stop (in the UK I think)



With this tram stop in Amsterdam (the one on the far side of the road to the camera).



In the former case there is a fence, so getting off the bus you have to change direction to cross the cycle lane. Where as in this Dutch case, the tourists get off the tram, only a paved "platform" that is about 1-1.5m wide, and go straight across into the fietspad. Sticking a fence here to direct the pedestrians would be an potential solution. I ride this every day so I know to look for for the tram coming to a stop and try to read the crowd, tho not being a local, I had to learn this.

J
Can't see an Amsterdam one.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2018, 03:17:59 pm »
Can't see an Amsterdam one.

As in the picture doesn't load, or you can't see in the picture what the floating tram stop is?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2018, 03:22:17 pm »
I don't know what De Sisti is seeing, but I see the image and the image itself isn't much help in showing us a floating tram stop. I can see the shelter but it's on the far side of the road and in the shade of trees. It would help if you gave us a link to the google streetview itself rather than a screenshot, I think.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2018, 03:23:47 pm »
I don't know what De Sisti is seeing, but I see the image and the image itself isn't much help in showing us a floating tram stop. I can see the shelter but it's on the far side of the road and in the shade of trees. It would help if you gave us a link to the google streetview itself rather than a screenshot, I think.

https://goo.gl/maps/dvmRdnN7vxJ2

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Shared use paths close passing
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2018, 03:45:44 pm »
Thanks. The big difference I see (now!) between the Amsterdam and British designs is that in Amsterdam, the bike path goes between the stop and the road – or rather, the tracks – whereas in Britain, it always (as far as I've seen) goes behind the stop. So in NL you have to cross the bike lane to get between tram and stop, whereas in GB you have to cross the bikes to get between bus stop and pavement. That is, the UK design would appear to allow the shelter to function as a sort of 'vestibule' between modes of transport (bus and foot). There's also the point that the NL bike path is a straight line, incentivising fast riding! OTOH there appears to be better differentiation between pavement and cyclepath in NL.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree