Author Topic: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...  (Read 941 times)

tonycollinet

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Pingu

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Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 08:42:50 am »
Quote from: auntie
Kevin Johnson previously pleaded guilty at Bournemouth Crown Court to causing death by careless driving

Not dangerous apparently.

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 09:55:41 am »
I think that if someone has died, it should automatically be assumed to be dangerous. The current situation is awful.
Quote from: Kim
^ This woman knows what she's talking about.

Gattopardo

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Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 10:22:33 am »
Cyclist fault for not wearing hi viz... not much victim blaming...

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2018, 12:57:58 pm »
When I read it earlier - it said dangerous - but I'm with Butterfly - if driving is bad enough to result in death - then by definition it is dangerous.

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 01:13:47 pm »
If your attention was elsewhere at the moment of impact, and your victim was 50m away when you got out to see what it was, you could easily end up wondering what on earth could have caused the damage to the front of the vehicle.

Gattopardo

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Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2018, 02:22:20 pm »
If your attention was elsewhere at the moment of impact, and your victim was 50m away when you got out to see what it was, you could easily end up wondering what on earth could have caused the damage to the front of the vehicle.

Suspect you may need to rethink that.

mattc

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Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2018, 02:26:45 pm »
When I read it earlier - it said dangerous - but I'm with Butterfly - if driving is bad enough to result in death - then by definition it is dangerous.
Unfortuantely that doesn't stand up-to analysis

e.g. would you say the road was dangerous?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 02:30:51 pm »
When I read it earlier - it said dangerous - but I'm with Butterfly - if driving is bad enough to result in death - then by definition it is dangerous.
Unfortuantely that doesn't stand up-to analysis

e.g. would you say the road was dangerous?

The road user...aka murderer

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 02:49:51 pm »
When I read it earlier - it said dangerous - but I'm with Butterfly - if driving is bad enough to result in death - then by definition it is dangerous.
Unfortuantely that doesn't stand up-to analysis

e.g. would you say the road was dangerous?

You're going to tell us how, statistically, dual carriageways are far safer roads to cycle on than single carriageways, aren't you?

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 04:24:30 pm »
Conflicting statements about lighting are troubling too

A

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 04:39:52 pm »
It almost seems that the courts have viewed cycling on road as inherently dangerous, & perhaps with a pervasive sense of 'accident'; that cyclists somehow 'contribute' to what happens simply by virtue of being on the road.  Motorists appear only to have to come out with some vague statement about not being aware of the cyclist.

PS. Personally I avoid DCwys, but that's my preference.
"an inordinate fondness for beetles"

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2018, 05:21:49 pm »
When I read it earlier - it said dangerous - but I'm with Butterfly - if driving is bad enough to result in death - then by definition it is dangerous.

But not by the definition in the Road Traffic Act, where it's the standard of your driving, specifically how it falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver, that determines which offence you would be charged with.

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2018, 06:50:42 am »
When I read it earlier - it said dangerous - but I'm with Butterfly - if driving is bad enough to result in death - then by definition it is dangerous.

But not by the definition in the Road Traffic Act, where it's the standard of your driving, specifically how it falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver, that determines which offence you would be charged with.

Yes, I understand that. But I disagree with the legal definition.

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2018, 09:22:58 am »
When I read it earlier - it said dangerous - but I'm with Butterfly - if driving is bad enough to result in death - then by definition it is dangerous.
Unfortuantely that doesn't stand up-to analysis

e.g. would you say the road was dangerous?

You're going to tell us how, statistically, dual carriageways are far safer roads to cycle on than single carriageways, aren't you?
dual carriageways are foul to cycle on.

However, if I have to commute in rush hour traffic, I'd rather commute on a dual carriageway than a single carriageway.

That statement is made based on thousands of hours of plowing up and down between york and leeds. The A64 dual carriageway bit was much, much safer than the single carriageway bit. More space between me and the vehicles.  So despite the greater speed differential, yes, the dual-carriageway was safer. 
<i>Marmite slave</i>

ian

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Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2018, 09:35:04 am »
The problem with dual-carriageways is that drivers don't really pay attention once they've driven the same section a few times. Which likely explains why some people saw a brightly lit bicycle and others didn't. And it's not usual, it's how our brains work, we'll go into autopilot in such situations until something unusual invokes consciousness. Anyone that claims to be paying full attention is lying.

Admittedly, I can't imagine I'd hit 'a deer' and not stop.

I'd also agree with the entire 'careless' thing – there's nothing else we do where momentary 'carelessness' can be fatal to someone else. If it wasn't happening in a motor vehicle, where the rules are evidently different, I'm sure we'd be concerned. But ultimately, regardless of the definition, it's crass and offensive to put someone's death at the behest of mere carelessness. Sorry, your husband is dead. There's a bit of an oops on his way home. It seems to be legal terminology yet again aimed at the mitigation for drivers, who never like to face the fact that they might have done something significant wrong or that they should (and would in any other context) carry a higher duty of care towards others.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2018, 10:48:02 am »
The hypocrisy of the whole ‘careless’ thing is evidenced by it only applying on the highway. E.g if you’re in charge of a vehicle on a construction site and you run someone over there is no defence of ‘momentary inattention’ to the ensuing health & safety charge.  Only on the highway are drivers forgiven for ‘momentarily’ being ‘inattentive’.
R10000 x 2   RRtY x 6    SR x 7    E = 128

Kim

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Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2018, 01:33:39 pm »
When I read it earlier - it said dangerous - but I'm with Butterfly - if driving is bad enough to result in death - then by definition it is dangerous.
Unfortuantely that doesn't stand up-to analysis

e.g. would you say the road was dangerous?

You're going to tell us how, statistically, dual carriageways are far safer roads to cycle on than single carriageways, aren't you?
dual carriageways are foul to cycle on.

However, if I have to commute in rush hour traffic, I'd rather commute on a dual carriageway than a single carriageway.

That statement is made based on thousands of hours of plowing up and down between york and leeds. The A64 dual carriageway bit was much, much safer than the single carriageway bit. More space between me and the vehicles.  So despite the greater speed differential, yes, the dual-carriageway was safer.

Multiple lanes are the important thing.  It means they can overtake you properly.  Paradoxically, narrower lanes are better, as there's never a question of cars being able to squeeze past in the same lane.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2018, 01:40:12 pm »
Paradoxically, narrower lanes are better, as there's never a question of cars being able to squeeze past in the same lane.

Not if they're so narrow only 1 1/8 cars fit across them, as several are around here. I avoid them like the plague.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

ian

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Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2018, 09:19:35 pm »
Just reading about a woman who critically injured a cyclist while driving high on cocaine.

Lawyer says 'The defendant is a woman of good character.'

I realise at this point that's evidently a competition between lawyers to try and keep a straight face when saying this. They're all in the pub on a Friday evening comparing. Yeah, he was injecting heroin into his eyeballs while masturbating over child pornography and using the LHC to accelerate kittens into a wall, but I just looked the judge in the eyes and said it: the defendant is a man of good character. Didn't flinch. Didn't smirk. Nailed it.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2018, 11:23:12 pm »
Trying to overtake on a single width road, and killing someone, is just careless driving:-

https://www.itv.com/news/border/update/2018-11-13/man-who-killed-elderly-cyclist-found-guilty-of-careless-driving/
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Wowbagger

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Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2018, 12:00:29 am »
Trying to overtake on a single width road, and killing someone, is just careless driving:-

https://www.itv.com/news/border/update/2018-11-13/man-who-killed-elderly-cyclist-found-guilty-of-careless-driving/

I hate that expression "clipped". He wasn't clipped: he was mown down by a man driving a car.
Homo sapiens - a creature so intelligent it knowingly sowed the seeds of its own destruction and did nothing about it.

Re: What are the sentencing guidelines for Death by dangerous driving?...
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2018, 11:16:18 am »
Update:
Quote
Lanham, 71, overtook two female cyclists, one of whom had to pull off the road to let him past. His Focus horn was then heard sounding "four to five times" before he drove past helmet-wearing Mr Lee as he pedalled an electric bike. Another female cyclist, a GP, told police Mr Lee did not deviate from his straight riding line, but was knocked off his bike as Lanham went by.

I can understand how that seems careless but not dangerous. I mean, who doesn't run 2 other people off the road, hitting and killing one of them?  Twice on Sundays, right? Definitely only careless. FFFFFFS!
https://www.itv.com/news/border/update/2018-11-14/man-jailed-for-12-months-for-careless-driving-after-death-of-cyclist/