Author Topic: Non alcoholic wine substitutes for cooking  (Read 597 times)

Non alcoholic wine substitutes for cooking
« on: November 08, 2018, 11:26:05 am »
I was just reading an article that mentioned a non alcoholic wine substitute for cooking. My reaction was why? I get that there are many reasons why some people don't want to drink alcohol but surely when you cook with it all the alcohol evaporates anyway? Am I missing something here?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 11:32:45 am »
I have known people who would not be able to ignore alcohol if it were there. It might be intended for cooking with but that wouldn’t stop them from drinking it.
"No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everybody on the couch."

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 11:35:03 am »
The alcohol doesn't all evaporate. Simmering it for an hour might reduce it to 10% of what you started with, but there will be some left.

Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 11:36:00 am »
It depends on what you're cooking and the method. Depending on what it is, some of the alcohol might not evaporate.

Of course, the quantities are so low that cooking with booze would be fine for even a rampant alcoholic, but I guess some people might want this for moral, religious or just peace of mind reasons...
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2018, 11:44:41 am »
I'm about to throw half a bottle of red into a slow-cooked casserole. Can't imagine it without the alcohol, it releases some of the flavours that wouldn't otherwise be released. Same for deglazing pans etc. Needs the alcohol to loosen everything up. The majority will evaporate thought there will be measurable amounts left. No enough to make you woozy. Of course, if you drink it before you get to the cooking stage...

By the by, some level of ethanol is common in all kinds of foods from fruit to bread (anything with yeast will, of course, have produced ethanol).
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 12:13:25 pm »
If you deglaze a pan, nearly all of the alcohol burns off directly (after all, most of the liquid does). If you add alcohol and whisk I suspect most alcohol will disappear. Chuck half a bottle in a casserole? I reckon most/all would be gone in an hour or so. Alternative slower/shorter/less vigorous cooking may leave alcohol behind, I dunno. Anyone interested can perform an experiment involving a pan with close fitting lid, moules mariniere and eyebrows where adding wine and lifting the lid a little later can produce satisfactory experimental results (DNAMHIKT).


Also, in the name of science (although I didn't realise this at the time) I used some zero alcohol wine in cooking a stew the other day and I can report it works well.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2018, 12:25:54 pm »
Well, my casserole will be slow cooking for the next 8+ hours. I think someone in a previous discussion on the topic dug up a study that said measurable amounts of ethanol remained – but measurable as in the same range you'd get from eating a couple of slices of bread or an apple. Pure ethanol boils at 78 degrees, so it'll gradually evaporate at a simmer (it'll pull down the simmering point for whatever you're cooking as well, which might impact the taste).

Anyway, you can't satisfactorily deglaze a pan with water – needs some kind of booze. It's the best use I have for stray bottles of vermouth.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2018, 12:32:48 pm »
As to why, I'm sure that for some people with moral or ethical objections to alcohol (religious, social, etc) it's not just about the amount of alcohol remaining but the fact that alcohol has been used. To make a broad analogy, some people or groups will refuse lottery funding because it is encouraging of gambling, even though they have not personally gambled, or others might refuse to work on projects connected with tobacco (eg advertising) regardless of whether or not actual tobacco is present.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 02:10:17 pm »
Alcohol gives me a headache in pretty low concentrations. I've had boeuf bourgignon that made me ill in 10 minutes, and it's usually simmered for something like 3 hours.  Mind you, knowing the folk that cooked it, they probably tipped in half a bottle of eau de vie before serving.  One of our club members makes the stuff by the gallon every autumn.
I dare eat all that may become a man.

But hold the oysters.

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 10:30:52 pm »
The beeb talked about this on a thing I watched a while back... *scurries off to google*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/22WcylHV9FMRbYm5Q6WY1ZB/can-you-get-drunk-on-boozy-food

Quote
The boiling point of alcohol is just 78 degrees Celsius, so we tend to think that as we cook it, the alcohol evaporates, leaving us to enjoy the flavour of the drink without becoming tipsy. However, a study published in the Journal of the American Dietetic Association reported that a surprising amount of alcohol can still be found in our food after cooking.

The study found that adding alcohol to a hot liquid for a short time before serving, as you might with mussels in a white wine and garlic sauce, could leave as much as 85% of the alcohol in the finished dish. With flambéing, though it looks as though the alcohol is burning off, the study found that a surprising75% of it remained in the meal.

The least boozy cooking methods were found to be baking or simmering – the researchers found that doing either for 30 minutes left just over a third of the original alcohol behind, and that after 2 hours this was reduced to approximately 10%.

Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2018, 09:03:39 am »
I have been educated. Thanks all, it seems there is a point in this after all.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2018, 09:48:54 am »
Realistically, you're not going to get drunk on a coq au vin. It's a bit like the time, as kids, we tried to get drunk on Barr's shandy ('less than 0.5% abv'). We just burped a lot. You can recreate this with Miller Genuine Draft. Make sure you have nearby toilet facilities too.

There's a fair amount of residual ethanol in anything fermented with yeast, of course.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2018, 09:51:23 am »
There's a fair amount of residual ethanol in anything fermented with yeast, of course.

Yup, you should have seen the state of my dog when she'd eaten one two many windfall crab apples.   
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

road-runner

  • is in Slovakia.
Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2018, 11:53:17 am »
I can add one reason to the religious, social, etc. list: if you live in a country where there is a 0% limit for drivers then you could not ever eat out if the meal had any alcohol in it and you need to drive in order to get home.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2018, 12:03:11 pm »
I can add one reason to the religious, social, etc. list: if you live in a country where there is a 0% limit for drivers then you could not ever eat out if the meal had any alcohol in it and you need to drive in order to get home.

That's not true (this is a story perpetuated by campaigners against zero limits) – any kind of detector has minimum thresholds for accuracy and precision and they aren't zero (and a good job, since your generate your own ethanol via your gut flora). Plus ethanol is present in many foods (as mentioned – bread, fruit, etc.)
!nataS pihsroW

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Non alchololic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2018, 04:53:05 pm »
There's a fair amount of residual ethanol in anything fermented with yeast, of course.

Yup, you should have seen the state of my dog when she'd eaten one two many windfall crab apples.

Silly Moo cider is so named because the cows in the orchard got tipsy...

Re: Non alcoholic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2018, 05:58:59 pm »
As far as I understand it (I could be wrong of course as I'm a rubbish cook) but it's the acidity of the booze - usually wine, used in cooking that does the business, not the alcohol. Hence the use of lime or lemon juice in many dishes from around the world. And there are loads of recipes out there that substitute wine with some kind of lemon juice/water/stock mix for cooking with.

Also, bear in mind that many chefs are absolutely full of shit. They're always banging on about how you must use certain ingredients, but you can bet your bollocks to a barn dance they wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a blindfolded taste test...
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Tim Hall

  • Bright are the stars that shine Dark is the sky
Re: Non alcoholic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2018, 09:36:19 am »
but you can bet your bollocks to a barn dance
This is now my Phrase of The Week.
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thing1

  • aka Joth
    • TandemThings
Re: Non alcoholic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2018, 09:24:43 am »
Some people may just not want to have it in their house, if there's a history of alcohol abuse / dependency and the knowledge of it being there risks too great a temptation.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Non alcoholic wine substitutes for cooking
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2018, 07:04:03 pm »
Well, vinegar will deglaze, but the boiling point of acetic acid is 118 degrees, so it will effectively evaporate slower than the water and concentrate, hence a lingering vinegary taste. Same for lemon juice, as you reduce any sauce with lemon juice it becomes more lemony and tart, so you usually need less juice than you might imagine (that's partly a factor of the limonene and other essential oils and partly the citric acid).

I'm sure you can cook without wine, but I reckon I prefer it in recipes that demand it and as a general purpose deglazer. Plus yes, there's the option of lubricating the cooking process by pouring yourself – the chef – a glass.
!nataS pihsroW