Author Topic: Right of access...  (Read 1587 times)

Right of access...
« on: November 19, 2018, 03:36:16 pm »
Some times it's difficult to know if one can use a route on a bike, and whether the "Private" refers only motorised vehicles...

F'rinstance this route between Weston and Yatton, via a sluice track.

So the sign says "Private Track.  No Access", but it looks like this on osm cycle... dashed cycle route line.  The route does not appear on sustrans.
https://www.opencyclemap.org/?zoom=17&lat=51.38318&lon=-2.89853&layers=B0000

What think ye on the above and in general?
"an inordinate fondness for beetles"

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2018, 03:43:34 pm »
I often think to myself, what's the worst that can happen?  Seriously though, if it's just a case of going around for a few miles instead of a straight line to keep en route may as well go around.
Frequent Audax and bike ride videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/djrikki2008/videos

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2018, 03:47:54 pm »
I'd say there's little doubt that the sign is in response to people using the track.  In the absence of any other information (rights of way mapping or signage) I would assume it is indeed private.

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2018, 03:50:10 pm »
Have a look on the OS map - is it marked as a right of way?  There is an estate near us with signs up on the entrance roads warning of dire consequences if you pass the sign but in tiny print at the bottom of the sign it says that walkers, cyclists and horse riders are permitted.  Yes, it is a bridle way.

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2018, 03:54:13 pm »

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2018, 05:44:20 pm »
There's a planning application by the county council to build a cyclepath and bridge in that vicinity. Not necessarily on that precise line though.
Quote
North Somerset Council have submitted a PLANNING APPLICATION. (If you already know this from our Facebook page here it is again.....)       

"Construction of a 1.4km shared use cycleway on a section of the old railway line running between Wick Road, Wick St Lawrence and Yeo Bank Lane, Kingston Seymour including a new farm bridge over the Congresbury Yeo, and the erection of a replica of the former Wick St Lawrence Station Halt building. "  Ref. No: 18/P/4758/FUL | Received:  Fri 02 Nov 2018

The link is https://planning.n-somerset.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=PHKVCHLPKX900

Alternatively you can reach this by finding North Somerset Council Planning and entering "Tutshill" in the application search box.

If you're still keen on this route I urge you to make a "Support" comment on the planning website.   Just click the "Support" box, skip the list of negatives,  add a word or two, and your support will be counted.  There'll be objections from some parties so it's important to counter these by showing the high level of support.

At present the expiry date for comments is not stated but the determination date is 28 December 2018.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2018, 06:04:20 pm »
That planning application may well be why OSM cycle has the route as a dashed line.

On one of my favourite old map overlay websites (Nat Lib Scotland), it does indeed show it as the old track bed of the Weston, Clevedon, Portishead Light railway...
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.3867&lon=-2.8948&layers=171&b=1

So maybe the signage in response to it being used before official right of way granted?
"an inordinate fondness for beetles"

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 07:12:44 pm »
The dashed red line on OpenCycleMap means it is a proposed NCN route. ie part of route 33. So it doesn't necessarily tell you anything about the current access rights.
The path is tagged as bicycle=no, so it says you are not allowed to cycle along there.

An NCN route does not necessarily mean it is a right of way. NCN routes could include permissive paths etc. And some parts where you are not actually allowed to cycle.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2018, 07:57:24 pm »
Definitive maps are the answer
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/definitive-maps-of-public-rights-of-way-change-the-legal-records

F'rinstance, here in Hants you can search at: https://row.hants.gov.uk/
How often would that differ from those shown on the OS maps? [which I regard as a NATIONAL TREASURE and correct until proven guilty wrong in a court of ENGLISH Law ;) ]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2018, 07:58:00 pm »
On one of my favourite old map overlay websites (Nat Lib Scotland), it does indeed show it as the old track bed of the Weston, Clevedon, Portishead Light railway...
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.3867&lon=-2.8948&layers=171&b=1

Superb! How did I ever live without that??
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2018, 08:23:00 pm »
Some times it's difficult to know if one can use a route on a bike, and whether the "Private" refers only motorised vehicles...

F'rinstance this route between Weston and Yatton, via a sluice track.

So the sign says "Private Track.  No Access", but it looks like this on osm cycle... dashed cycle route line.  The route does not appear on sustrans.
https://www.opencyclemap.org/?zoom=17&lat=51.38318&lon=-2.89853&layers=B0000

What think ye on the above and in general?

The Strava heatmap can be useful regarding this sort of thing. Although it obviously doesn't give you an answer to the legal status of the route it does give you an idea of how frequently the route is used compared to others.

You can toggle between bike and running/walking to see the different activities

https://www.strava.com/heatmap#15.00/-2.89561/51.38690/hot/all

I was going to suggest that if you were on Strava you could create a segment on the route to gather more information but there is one there already

https://www.strava.com/segments/13684165

I'm not sure whether you need to be a Strava user to see the segment but it currently shows that 17 users have recorded a ride along there.

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2018, 08:23:58 pm »
Definitive maps are the answer
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/definitive-maps-of-public-rights-of-way-change-the-legal-records

F'rinstance, here in Hants you can search at: https://row.hants.gov.uk/
How often would that differ from those shown on the OS maps? [which I regard as a NATIONAL TREASURE and correct until proven guilty wrong in a court of ENGLISH Law ;) ]

There have been at least four notices of alterations to footpaths, or of new footpaths, in the regional Western Morning News over the last two weeks.  And there's a whole host of pending ones on the definitive map around this area.

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2018, 08:45:31 pm »
I use this site quite a lot as it's easier than sometimes trying to find an authorities PROW definitive map on line

http://www.rowmaps.com/showmap.php?place=Icelton&map=OS&lat=51.3851&lon=2.90099&lonew=W

Currently shows only footpath along the route. 

If you follow @rowmaps on twitter they post up when they update the ROW data for regions.
Regards,

Jason

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2018, 10:31:48 am »
That planning application may well be why OSM cycle has the route as a dashed line.

On one of my favourite old map overlay websites (Nat Lib Scotland), it does indeed show it as the old track bed of the Weston, Clevedon, Portishead Light railway...
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.3867&lon=-2.8948&layers=171&b=1

So maybe the signage in response to it being used before official right of way granted?

Well, that's todays' productivity ruined. Amazing.

arabella

  • no se porque yo no lo se
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2018, 11:41:33 am »
I've always assumed that I am OK to push my bike along a footpath as that makes me a pedestrian, sometimes quicker than cycling around.  So if the mood takes me my toy bike* and I bike'n'walk our way around. depending on the ground and the permissions (bridleway is not the same as cycleable)
* 26" wheel islabike weighing very little compared to all my other (steel) bikes.
In the dark, all views are the same.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2018, 01:56:48 pm »
Some times it's difficult to know if one can use a route on a bike, and whether the "Private" refers only motorised vehicles...

The simplest description I've seen recently comes from a description of the difference (pre-land access reform) between Scotland and England on land access.

Scotland: It's accessible unless you're otherwise told it isn't
England: It's private unless you're otherwise told it isn't

For England that it isn't private for your mode of transport may depend on reading the OS map to identify the type of way.


You've also got me wondering about motorized access to "private" roads in Scotland; the Road Traffic Act applies to all roads in Scotland (there is only the concepts of Roads, Special roads), if there isn't a sign saying "no unauthorized motorized vehicles" or at least a locked gate (which then must have a gate adjacent for statutory access) does that imply the land owner is allowing you to drive on their road? hm...

Socks

  • FFCT rally, France 2012
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2018, 02:48:04 pm »

On one of my favourite old map overlay websites (Nat Lib Scotland), it does indeed show it as the old track bed of the Weston, Clevedon, Portishead Light railway...
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=51.3867&lon=-2.8948&layers=171&b=1


What a fabulous resource - many years ago I worked in a local history library with thousands of old maps.  It was interesting but quite labour intensive to get the different map editions for an area and track how it had changed.  Nothing like this digitised world wide interweb malarkey in them days.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2018, 09:47:44 pm »
The NLS online archive only has 1 revision per series.

The Sabre roads mapping is aiming to have every revision published for each series.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2018, 12:39:40 am »
The NLS online archive only has 1 revision per series.
The NLS has multiple maps for some series. But you need to switch to the view for "Find by place", then pick the specific series/map. If you use the "Explore georeferenced maps" view, it will only show 1 revision (presumably the most recent?).
Also it varies by area, some parts have more maps available than others.

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2018, 01:10:26 pm »
...
Scotland: It's accessible unless you're otherwise told it isn't
...
You've also got me wondering about motorized access to "private" roads in Scotland; the Road Traffic Act applies to all roads in Scotland (there is only the concepts of Roads, Special roads), if there isn't a sign saying "no unauthorized motorized vehicles" or at least a locked gate (which then must have a gate adjacent for statutory access) does that imply the land owner is allowing you to drive on their road? hm...

Rights of access specifically DO NOT apply to motorised vehicles in Scotland. So you may, for example, exercise your Right Of Responsible Access and cycle up and down the tarmac road to the "golf ball" radar station above Wanlockhead but you do not have the right to drive up the same road (unless you have permission because you have a legitimate reason to drive to the radar station).

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2018, 08:48:11 am »
I wish i'd known that. I rode all the way up to Wanlockhead with the intention of going to the golf ball but bottled it when I saw the PRIVATE ROAD sign.

Best I go back again. Lovely area.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Right of access...
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2018, 10:54:51 am »
...
Scotland: It's accessible unless you're otherwise told it isn't
...
You've also got me wondering about motorized access to "private" roads in Scotland; the Road Traffic Act applies to all roads in Scotland (there is only the concepts of Roads, Special roads), if there isn't a sign saying "no unauthorized motorized vehicles" or at least a locked gate (which then must have a gate adjacent for statutory access) does that imply the land owner is allowing you to drive on their road? hm...

Rights of access specifically DO NOT apply to motorised vehicles in Scotland. So you may, for example, exercise your Right Of Responsible Access and cycle up and down the tarmac road to the "golf ball" radar station above Wanlockhead but you do not have the right to drive up the same road (unless you have permission because you have a legitimate reason to drive to the radar station).

Right of access specifically DO NOT apply to roads either
From the Act:
(6)Access rights do not constitute a public right of passage for the purposes of the definition of “road” in section 151(1) (interpretation) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 (c. 54).

While the Road Traffic Act as applied in Scotland covers all roads and a certain distances from a road (500m IIRC) ; the Roads (Scotland) Act does differentiate for the purpose of detailing how Local Authorities must manage their roads and their grounds of intervention on Private roads.

Hence on a private road the Scottish concept of trespass may or may not apply which is what I was pondering.
The Scottish trespass concept is that you can access it unless said otherwise e.g. signs saying "Private Road", "No vehicles" etc. and significantly pre-dates the motorvehicle!


Re: Right of access...
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2018, 12:49:26 pm »
If it was a Land Rover track and you wanted to mountain bike up it I don't think you could argue anything other than that was permitted. So why does the fact that it is tarmaced make a difference? That is my argument anyway, I could well be wrong.

Mr fimm once did a sportive that got permission (which they would need, that's different to just riding up on your own or in a small group) to finish up there, so they're obviously not too anti-cyclist...

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2018, 04:06:53 pm »
In future I intend to do more OS map research.  The other day I went up to the Ridgeway - heading down a track through farmland, but after ~200m was confronted with something like 'Private Road.  Persons using will be liable to prosecution'.  So I U-turned, and when down elsewhere.  I've since consulted OS map, and it is a restricted byway, so would have been fine on my bike (being human, rather than 'mechanically' propelled). 

Re. the 'Yatton Weston sluice track', still tempting to use it to avoid 4km of the busy A370 (Congresbury to M5 Weston jnct).  However it was only exploring a possible route via Cheddar then Strawberry line to Yatton, to do with a Weston friend.
"an inordinate fondness for beetles"

Re: Right of access...
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2018, 04:21:57 pm »
...
Scotland: It's accessible unless you're otherwise told it isn't
...
You've also got me wondering about motorized access to "private" roads in Scotland; the Road Traffic Act applies to all roads in Scotland (there is only the concepts of Roads, Special roads), if there isn't a sign saying "no unauthorized motorized vehicles" or at least a locked gate (which then must have a gate adjacent for statutory access) does that imply the land owner is allowing you to drive on their road? hm...

Rights of access specifically DO NOT apply to motorised vehicles in Scotland. So you may, for example, exercise your Right Of Responsible Access and cycle up and down the tarmac road to the "golf ball" radar station above Wanlockhead but you do not have the right to drive up the same road (unless you have permission because you have a legitimate reason to drive to the radar station).

I had to look that up because many moons ago I stayed at Wanlockhead SYHA onna tour. There's a rather good gmaps 360° from the road (not the top).  Seems fitting that cycling up is enough reason in it's own right, whereas as driving on it's own, without some other defined purpose, isn't...   :)
"an inordinate fondness for beetles"