Author Topic: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road  (Read 947 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« on: November 20, 2018, 09:11:49 pm »
Are what some bloke called Will Dunn (probably the former editor of Stuff magazine who now writes for the New Statesman, not the Harry Potter actor, but you never know) seems to be arguing for.
https://www.citymetric.com/transport/are-london-s-cycle-lanes-literally-wrong-side-road-4354
Access between cycle lane and other streets, or cycle lane and destinations, could be a problem. Other than that, I don't know, might be worth a try. Maybe. Thoughts, comments?
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2018, 09:28:56 pm »
Might work in That London, but what about other cities where the speed of motor traffic will vary between R17 and gridlock depending on the time of day?

They're building a proper cycle path down the central reservation of the A38 between Silly Oak and Edgbaston, with the physical segregation (a kerb, decent with of verge and many large trees) meaning that they're entirely separate.  That works because there isn't really anywhere along that stretch that cyclists might want to access, other than a couple of side-roads which will have light-controlled junctions.  The prospect of something similar in a more typical urban street, without the physical segregation, doesn't sound like much fun.


Related thought:  Why aren't bus lanes in the middle of the road?
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2018, 09:38:12 pm »
Related thought:  Why aren't bus lanes in the middle of the road?

Because passengers need to be picked up / dropped off at the pavements at the sides of the roads, I'd have thought. Otherwise, that would require either passengers or busses to perform a lot of lane changes.

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2018, 09:39:07 pm »
Related thought:  Why aren't bus lanes in the middle of the road?

Because passengers need to be picked up / dropped off at the pavements at the sides of the roads, I'd have thought. Otherwise, that would require either passengers or busses to perform a lot of lane changes.

Indeed.  The alternative would be right-handed buses and island bus stops.  At which point it starts to sound a lot like a tram.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2018, 09:46:16 pm »
Indeed.  The alternative would be right-handed buses and island bus stops.  At which point it starts to sound a lot like a tram.

Funny you mention that, there's a few examples of where the buses and trams share a lane in the middle of the road and station infrastructure in the middle of the road.
https://wongm.com/2015/03/shared-bus-tram-lanes-melbourne/

I'm sure I've seen similar in Germany too.

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2018, 10:02:35 pm »
So many cookies...

Quote
London also has a particular hazard for cyclists... ...in that many streets have guard rails to protect pedestrians from traffic

 ???

Not particular to London; not particularly many; and more likely to protect traffic from pedestrians than vice-versa

Fundamentally the idea suffers by doubling up the effect of the current dual-direction cycle superhighways. It really really fucks up traffic flow. Every Traffic Lighted T junction that has 5 phases of traffic suddenly needs more, to allow for segregated cycle traffic to make the same motor vehicle manouvers; and every T Junction now needs traffic lights.
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2018, 10:10:49 pm »
The original article is talking about the best place for painted lanes on busy multi-lane main roads, somehow missing that they shouldn't exist.

Related thought:  Why aren't bus lanes in the middle of the road?

I was quite taken by this central bi-directional bus lane I saw in Nantes:
https://goo.gl/maps/4cKm8GTo47q

yorkie

  • On top of the Galibier
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2018, 11:19:15 pm »
There is a similar set up heading south out of Lille, albeit with 2 central lanes for buses and bikes.
https://goo.gl/maps/7ffGj9eUzeK2
Born to ride my bike, forced to work! ;)

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Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
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    • the Igloo
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2018, 12:07:18 am »
Related thought:  Why aren't bus lanes in the middle of the road?

Because passengers need to be picked up / dropped off at the pavements at the sides of the roads, I'd have thought. Otherwise, that would require either passengers or busses to perform a lot of lane changes.

Indeed.  The alternative would be right-handed buses and island bus stops.  At which point it starts to sound a lot like a tram.

Passengers crossing a lane of traffic to get to the trams as in some parts of Brussels.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2018, 09:38:20 am »
If you have trams in the middle of the road, all the passengers have to cross half the road. If you have trams at the side of the road, half the passengers have to cross all the road. Same for buses of course. In fact we have central bus lanes in two places in Bristol. One of them is on the M32 and the dual carriageway it leads into, where there aren't any stops.
https://goo.gl/maps/88nghyGR4dn

The other is a bizarre slalom design with central island stops, but it's very short, and is due to be replaced with something different.
https://goo.gl/maps/FPid5zfau7A2
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2018, 10:09:22 am »
In Jakarta (which now has segregated bus lanes in the middle of the road), for instance, they build footbridges. Similar in Bangkok and similar developing world places. The difference, of course, is that the roads there are generally uncrossable by pedestrians unless they're Usain Bolt or have a death wish. I can't imagine we'd stick a giant footbridge across most British roads, but then they're a lot more benevolent.

If only we had a stripy thing we could put across the road that orders vehicles to give way to pedestrians.
!nataS pihsroW

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2018, 12:07:45 pm »
So many cookies...

Quote
London also has a particular hazard for cyclists... ...in that many streets have guard rails to protect pedestrians from traffic
Not particular to London; not particularly many; and more likely to protect traffic from pedestrians than vice-versa

Fundamentally the idea suffers by doubling up the effect of the current dual-direction cycle superhighways. It really really fucks up traffic flow. Every Traffic Lighted T junction that has 5 phases of traffic suddenly needs more, to allow for segregated cycle traffic to make the same motor vehicle manouvers; and every T Junction now needs traffic lights.

Given the Dutch have an aversion to round abouts, traffic lights are all pervasive, and some how the cycle infrastructure works. This is largely because the cycle lane on the right of the traffic is treated as part of the traffic, and signalled accordingly. It does mean that turning left requires you to go through 2 sets of lights on a bike, tho in many cases a cyclist will just go straight across and left, a bit like a scramble crossing.

Railings along the edge of roads are evil and should be banned out right. They have been shown to have caused fatalities where cyclists have been crushed against them, and the benefits of stopping pedestrians falling into traffic are hard to prove. They are a symptom of private car supremacy, which we should be taking all measures to crush.

As for the original topic. Ask yourself: if it's such a good idea, why has it not been done in the one country where every possible experimentation of bike infrastructure seems to have been trailed?

The main issue I see with most UK cycle path implementations is that they have give way signs at every bloody side road, which is just stupid. The cycle lane should go straight across the side road, at the same level. This puts a defined speed table/bump at the end of the side road, which also helps signify right of way.

As for the specific issue with London cycle superhighways? They seem to have been drawn by someone who thinks motorways are a good idea, and owns some crayons. (Incidentally the same type of people seem to be behind HS2). But I could rant at length about this, but I'd just be preaching to the perverted.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2018, 12:28:40 pm »
If only we had a stripy thing we could put across the road that orders vehicles to give way to pedestrians.
That's great for getting passengers on an off trams and buses. Cumbersome for cyclists accessing a central cycle lane.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2018, 12:29:18 pm »
Railings along the edge of roads are evil and should be banned out right. They have been shown to have caused fatalities where cyclists have been crushed against them, and the benefits of stopping pedestrians falling into traffic are hard to prove. They are a symptom of private car supremacy, which we should be taking all measures to crush.
I think of them as anti-personnel railings.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2018, 12:32:55 pm »
Railings along the edge of roads are evil and should be banned out right. They have been shown to have caused fatalities where cyclists have been crushed against them, and the benefits of stopping pedestrians falling into traffic are hard to prove. They are a symptom of private car supremacy, which we should be taking all measures to crush.
I think of them as anti-personnel railings.

Lots of them round here (SW London) have been removed over the last few years...
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."


Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2018, 10:15:27 am »
If only we had a stripy thing we could put across the road that orders vehicles to give way to pedestrians.
That's great for getting passengers on an off trams and buses. Cumbersome for cyclists accessing a central cycle lane.

I love the "3D" ones in Iceland....



There are also other non-standard versions, the idea being that they  will be more "visible" and inspire thought  by drivers

In Delhi, they have a truly 3d version that looks like a bollard:



I also like this , a true "Zebra" crossing



Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2018, 12:41:08 pm »
All of which will surely work exactly once on a given driver.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2018, 02:48:31 pm »
All of which will surely work exactly once on a given driver.
True - but it's damn pretty  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
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Re: Cycle lanes in the middle of the road
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2018, 02:53:17 pm »
I agree, if the cycle lane is down the middle of the road, other road users might get that cycles are also allowed to use the whole lane.