Author Topic: Transcontinental 2019  (Read 19631 times)

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #350 on: December 03, 2019, 06:54:21 am »

S2L

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #351 on: December 03, 2019, 08:41:55 am »
Some very interesting data... numbers are not large enough for reliable stats, but some interesting trends nonetheless

Women are more likely to finish than men, but overall less likely to finish within the GC.
CP3 was the killer for both men and women, but not for the pairs

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #352 on: December 03, 2019, 09:14:28 am »
Interesting to see almost every finisher got a time penalty, including 5.5 hours for Kolbinger. Do they detail what these are anywhere?

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #353 on: December 03, 2019, 01:51:08 pm »
No, they don't usually - it would be a big admin task.
I thought it was interesting that there were so many people with penalties.  It wasn't like that in 2016. 
Fiona will most likely have got some for using a section of road in France - the N82/N7 south of Roanne - that is not legal for cyclists.  There are reports that she did something similar in Switzerland.   

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #354 on: December 03, 2019, 07:28:36 pm »
No, they don't usually - it would be a big admin task.
I thought it was interesting that there were so many people with penalties.  It wasn't like that in 2016. 
Fiona will most likely have got some for using a section of road in France - the N82/N7 south of Roanne - that is not legal for cyclists.  There are reports that she did something similar in Switzerland.

This was quite extensively discussed on the French randonneur forum.

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #355 on: December 03, 2019, 08:05:03 pm »
Interesting to see almost every finisher got a time penalty, including 5.5 hours for Kolbinger. Do they detail what these are anywhere?

No inside knowledge here but I would guess its because the event is maturing and being refined with each edition. I imagine official dot watchers are receiving more sophisticated mandates as a result.
I guess its possible that the trackers now having 5 min pings (rather than 10 mins) could also come into play. (at least I think thats the case)
I don't think Im giving anything untoward away by saying that the #8 registration doc really hammers home safety that goes beyond previous races.
All the gear and no idea.Three dimensionally dyslexic.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #356 on: December 04, 2019, 06:41:49 pm »
The doubling of pings could well make a difference. When I was dot-watching in 2017, there were long sections thru winding  mountain gorges where the riders "track" would tend to be nowhere bloody near the actual roads! With a "No-bikes" road running vaguley alongside an older road, I was often flagging riders who MIGHT have been on the motorway, but I really couldn't be sure. I suspect they all got the benefit of the doubt; I never heard of any pens for my riders, and I'm not sure if I'd have been told anyway.

It certainly is interesting, this quantity of pens in 2019! I do hope that Lostdot disclose some details :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #357 on: December 05, 2019, 08:29:39 am »
I've dug into it a bit more and a lot of it apparently comes from the A1 in Serbia, where many riders missed the banned sections.  They must have been through the tracks with a fine-tooth comb to sort it out.

I diverted off the A1 for the banned sections but it turns out I did use another bit of banned road - the bridge over the Danube to the east of Belgrade.  It was busy with lots of trucks around but didn't spot any signs there at the time.  It is on streetview but from 2014 so not much use.  I wasn't the only one to go that way so some penalties will be from that.

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #358 on: December 05, 2019, 10:35:49 am »
So, as an example, could you decide to ride on a banned road knowing that you will get a 1hr penalty but that it will save you 2hrs of riding ?

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #359 on: December 05, 2019, 10:51:52 am »
It's a tricky one - Sean Conway broke German law by cycling in the road when there was a quality cycle track available, which got him no end of aggro from raging Audi drivers. Should that invalidate his record in some way, as it gives him an advantage over a law-abiding record attempter? Very difficult. I think the laws are complete baloney but nonetheless it seems a bit much to basically have it a requirement to break the law and be at risk of getting nicked by Das Plodmensch in order to be on matched terms with an incumbent record holder...
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #360 on: December 05, 2019, 11:04:41 am »
I've dug into it a bit more and a lot of it apparently comes from the A1 in Serbia, where many riders missed the banned sections.  They must have been through the tracks with a fine-tooth comb to sort it out.

I diverted off the A1 for the banned sections but it turns out I did use another bit of banned road - the bridge over the Danube to the east of Belgrade.  It was busy with lots of trucks around but didn't spot any signs there at the time.  It is on streetview but from 2014 so not much use.  I wasn't the only one to go that way so some penalties will be from that.

Can you confirm that it is this bridge that you got a penalty for?

https://goo.gl/maps/bUyJbYRhnw5ZuB3N6

Thanks

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #361 on: December 05, 2019, 11:57:56 am »
Reading with interest as I'm fascinated by the event and the riders but in the knowledge I won't do anything about it and have never read the race manual.....

I would imagine if you are breaking race rules because they think you shouldn't be riding on a particular road for your own safety based on their knowledge of ultra-riders and the event is one thing, breaking a country's laws in anyway including their road law is another and I would expect a more severe penalty for the latter.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #362 on: December 05, 2019, 12:32:00 pm »
Reading with interest as I'm fascinated by the event and the riders but in the knowledge I won't do anything about it and have never read the race manual.....

I would imagine if you are breaking race rules because they think you shouldn't be riding on a particular road for your own safety based on their knowledge of ultra-riders and the event is one thing, breaking a country's laws in anyway including their road law is another and I would expect a more severe penalty for the latter.

In that case many riders wearing Rapha reflective gilets should be severely penalised since they aren't sufficient at night according to French road law.

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #363 on: December 05, 2019, 12:46:27 pm »
As is always the way some laws do not comply with many peoples view of 'reasonable and fair' but If it stands a chance of bringing the race into disrepute then, yes.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #364 on: December 05, 2019, 12:52:04 pm »

In that case many riders wearing Rapha reflective gilets should be severely penalised since they aren't sufficient at night according to French road law.

In most nations the law is so complicated that nearly everyone is breaking it in multiple ways at all times.

On Race round the Netherlands exactly 1 bike was fully legal by the letter of the Dutch law. Then there is the slight issue of how local law interacts with the vienna convention. Tho explaining that to some cop at 2am in the middle of nowhere rarely ends well.

Regarding Sean Conway's riding in Germany, it's more complicated than people may suggest.

In Germany the cycleway/pavement along the side of the road is compulsory where the correct sign is placed. When the sign is there, the cycleway has to be maintained to specific standard. This responsibility lies with the local council, and for many of them, they have decided it was a lot easier to just remove the sign rather than maintain the cycleway. What this means is that you're cycling along in the road, quite legally, but the audi driver over taking you doesn't feel you should be there, you're still going to get shouted at, a lot. The same is true when the cycle way is full of ice, but the road is gritted, making the cycleway suicidal to ride in (Had the same problem in Belgium).

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #365 on: December 05, 2019, 01:17:38 pm »

In that case many riders wearing Rapha reflective gilets should be severely penalised since they aren't sufficient at night according to French road law.

In most nations the law is so complicated that nearly everyone is breaking it in multiple ways at all times.

On Race round the Netherlands exactly 1 bike was fully legal by the letter of the Dutch law. Then there is the slight issue of how local law interacts with the vienna convention. Tho explaining that to some cop at 2am in the middle of nowhere rarely ends well.


Reflective tyres and pedal reflectors (and maybe bells)?

The vienna convention is both amazing and amusing, it sets a minimal set of rules all signatories are meant to meet; and sets a set of rules about vehicles in "international traffic" that completely ignores the fact that bicycles aren't required to be registered! Depsite the fact that the rules of vehicle registration are set in it...

How do you convince the polis that a bike is in international rather than domestic traffic???!!!
If you do, then the bike has to meet the standards of the country it's supposedly from; there's more chance of UK regs being enforced in that case than on UK roads!

The French forced Prioritie a D'Roit into it for right hand traffic...  Everyone else countered that with the priority diamond sign to create the same set up as left hand traffic.

I think some international cycle tourists need to infiltrate get jobs with the UNECEs road traffic department in time for the Vienna convention's next revision.

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #366 on: December 05, 2019, 07:00:19 pm »
So, as an example, could you decide to ride on a banned road knowing that you will get a 1hr penalty but that it will save you 2hrs of riding ?

That would be an infraction of the rules. "Don't be a dick" and rule #10  "Ride in the spirit of self reliance and equal opportunity"
All the gear and no idea.Three dimensionally dyslexic.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #367 on: December 05, 2019, 07:18:57 pm »
So, as an example, could you decide to ride on a banned road knowing that you will get a 1hr penalty but that it will save you 2hrs of riding ?

That would be an infraction of the rules. "Don't be a dick" and rule #10  "Ride in the spirit of self reliance and equal opportunity"
In theory, perhaps - but the rider could claim ignorance. (and I don't think they know the exact penalties ... IIRC??)
Anyway, I do think there will always be grey areas. for example how on earth do organisers decide what is a "fair" penalty??
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #368 on: December 05, 2019, 08:34:37 pm »
Ask you, Matt

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #369 on: December 06, 2019, 11:30:19 am »

Can you confirm that it is this bridge that you got a penalty for?

https://goo.gl/maps/bUyJbYRhnw5ZuB3N6


That was the bridge I went over.  I didn't get a penalty as I didn't finish but I've been told by someone else who went over it that they got one for it, and quite a few others did - so I expect I would have got one.

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #370 on: December 06, 2019, 11:42:42 am »
So, as an example, could you decide to ride on a banned road knowing that you will get a 1hr penalty but that it will save you 2hrs of riding ?

In practice I don't think people do that, in part because they don't know what the penalties are so don't have the info to make the 'professional foul' calculation.  However, I also believe that if people reckoned that they would get a really big penalty (or get disqualified) they might behave differently sometimes. 

The philosophy behind the penalties is that they are designed to compensate for unfair advantage, not to punish.  The basis is that they accept that anyone can make a mistake but it shouldn't affect the result.  Like my bridge ^ it was a genuine mistake, I didn't see  any indication on any map that it was not rideable or any signs on the road.  So I would expect to have the time advantage I gained from it vs the next best route wiped out by a penalty.  If someone was to make a deliberate mistake, ie cheat, they would expect to be disqualified rather than receiving a time penalty.

In the past I've said that I think the penalties are not enough to outweigh the benefits of taking the illegal road.  This was based on my experience in 2016 when I leapfrogged with another rider for much of the race, was slightly ahead of him when we both slept at Skopje, but he finished about 12 hours before me, with a 2 hour penalty. 

How did that happen?  From Skopje, I took a rough and hilly but legal road while he took the motorway (waved onto it by a policeman).  Not only was his road far quicker but it meant that he was able to finish on the Friday evening, while I had to have an extra sleep stop which took me into Saturday morning. 

If we had taken the same route I may not have beaten him but I think we would have finished within a couple of hours of each other.   

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #371 on: December 06, 2019, 12:29:20 pm »
That was the bridge I went over.  I didn't get a penalty as I didn't finish but I've been told by someone else who went over it that they got one for it, and quite a few others did - so I expect I would have got one.

If there's no signs saying you can't ride over it, how do they know that it isn't legal to cycle over it?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #372 on: December 06, 2019, 01:26:49 pm »
That was the bridge I went over.  I didn't get a penalty as I didn't finish but I've been told by someone else who went over it that they got one for it, and quite a few others did - so I expect I would have got one.

If there's no signs saying you can't ride over it, how do they know that it isn't legal to cycle over it?

J

it's legal, but not allowed by the race organisers due to elevated danger (e.g. no shoulder and fast moving traffic). some trunk roads in romania were fine during most of early and late hours, but too busy/dangerous during the daylight, hence they were forbidden.

Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #373 on: December 06, 2019, 03:02:49 pm »

it's legal, but not allowed by the race organisers due to elevated danger (e.g. no shoulder and fast moving traffic). some trunk roads in romania were fine during most of early and late hours, but too busy/dangerous during the daylight, hence they were forbidden.

Is that right?  I assumed I must have missed a sign but maybe not.
Do you know where it is listed as being banned?  I didn't see it in the manual or on the 'hazards' map

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Transcontinental 2019
« Reply #374 on: December 06, 2019, 04:34:12 pm »
Is this one of the cases where they reserve the right to fiddle with the rules on the go?