Author Topic: Ran out of Talent.  (Read 1016 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Ran out of Talent.
« on: December 01, 2018, 11:32:37 pm »

Descending one of the intermediate bits of the Posbank, outside Arnhem, I was doing about 45kph, on roads that had the occasional dark patch of damp, but were on the whole "dry". As I turned to go round the corner, I just kept going forward. I turned further, and applied both brakes. Both wheels lock up, and now I'm sliding sideways towards the edge of the road. Fortunately being winter,there wasn't much undergrowth to go into, but there was a 150mm drop from the road onto the soft soil of the woodland. Once on the soil, the wheels dug in, and I was flung onto the handlebars, banging my knee, and then falling back and hitting my back on the saddle. The whole handlebar setup has rotated about 5-10° downwards, with the force, and the left arm rest of the tribars was knocked out of skew too. I fixed the later when I stopped at a cafe a few km down the road. I'll fix the former tomorrow.

10 hours later, I finished the remaining 105km of the ride, but it was getting very hard in the last 20km or so as the knee was getting unhappier and unhappier with what I was asking it to do. Sitting here now it's very sore, and bending it, standing up etc... hurt it. I think it's a superficial soft tissue injury, but it bloody hurts. I hope I at least get a pretty bruise out of it.

I ran out of talent. I ran out of grip, and I ran out of road. I was running Conti GP 4 seasons, which I put at 6 bar last night. I'm wondering what I did wrong. Were the tyres just not able to cope at 4°C (so much for 4 seasons if true)?

What should I have done in this situation?

I am very grateful that the motorbike that was following me quite closely didn't collect me as I crossed the road and fell off the edge. I wondering if I'm gonna appear in some dash cam video on gootube sometime soon...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2018, 06:28:13 am »
Nothing to do with the tyre compound, I can't speak about wear of course.

I ride GP 4 seasons year round, an have used them sub zero with no issues.

Did you check the road surface for contamination or just get up and go?
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2018, 06:51:28 am »
Quote
As I turned to go round the corner, I just kept going forward.

As Ely Dave says, that sounds like a patch of diesel. GWS.

Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2018, 08:03:49 am »
If it felt freakily unnatural and inexplicable then it's probably diesel. Very little can be done in those circumstances.

T42

  • Gaulois réfractaire
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2018, 08:49:55 am »
Sounds kinda shudderous. GWS.

BTW, I run GP4000s 25s at 7 bar for 70 kg of me. 6 sounds like the edge of I-want-snakebite territory, but I can't imagine it causing a skid.
I dare eat all that may become a man.

But hold the oysters.

Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2018, 09:17:56 am »
If it is diesel you can sometimes smell it on the soles of your shoes afterwards. I could after a motorbike fall (although there were other factors, the diesel only contributed!)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2018, 10:40:06 am »
possibly something slippery spilled on the road. as to braking - always try to brake in as straight line as possible, before the turn. braking while turning can make matters worse, especially when approaching tyre grip limit.

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2018, 12:07:27 pm »
It does sound an awful lot like diesel, or a fine layer of chutney or black ice or something: You don't get any warning, the tyre-ground friction just stops working.

The main thing I'd have done differently would be not riding another 100km on a b0rked knee, but a good rule of thumb is that if the steering isn't working properly, grabbing the brakes is unlikely to improve the situation.

GWS!
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

handcyclist

  • watch for my signal
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2018, 04:57:24 pm »
Sorry to read about your off. Bad luck and hope the knee recovers 100% and soon.

As others have mentioned, sounds like diesel or other oil.

Not much you could have done about the initial slide, but locking up on the brakes guaranteed a fall.

One drill I've been taught on a motorcycle skills day is to practice deliberately locking up wheels in controlled conditions, so that you know what it feels like and develop a muscle memory for what to do - which is to let the brakes off instantly. (Especially the front - you can get away with locking up the rear a bit longer). When you've practised hard enough, you can leave a row of black marks on a dry road, like a dotted line.

It may not have saved you - but locked up wheels are not going to regain grip in a helpful way. With the tyres no longer subject to braking forces, they may have regained enough grip to get around the corner.

As an aside, is there a cultural difference with PTWs in the Netherlands? Just about every biker I know in the UK, having seen you wipe out, would have stopped to find out if you were alright.
Doubt is is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2018, 08:27:07 pm »
Cat (the english daughter) rode her Brommie into a Wantage pothole a few years back and suffered what was at the time put down as soft tissue damage on her knee and leg. The only problem was that the real damage was not soft tissue bruising but something far worse and the doctor's advice to keep using the leg to help repair the tissue damage turned out to be the opposite of what was really required. It took 9 months with endless arguements with medical experts and repeated time off work (not to mention pain resisting all known painkillers) to resolve the issue. Moral of story, if the bruising doesn't clear up in a reasonable timescale and the pain doesn't go away scream for a decent specialist who understands knees. Don't let it go unattended!

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 11:02:57 pm »

Thanks everyone, reassuring that it's likely to be surface contamination rather than my own ineptitude, even if once it had started I perhaps didn't do the right thing to help the situation.

Sounds kinda shudderous. GWS.

BTW, I run GP4000s 25s at 7 bar for 70 kg of me. 6 sounds like the edge of I-want-snakebite territory, but I can't imagine it causing a skid.

In the summer I ran GP4000s ii 28mm's at ideally 6 bar, but down to 4 bar at times. No snake bite issues.

It does sound an awful lot like diesel, or a fine layer of chutney or black ice or something: You don't get any warning, the tyre-ground friction just stops working.

The main thing I'd have done differently would be not riding another 100km on a b0rked knee, but a good rule of thumb is that if the steering isn't working properly, grabbing the brakes is unlikely to improve the situation.

GWS!

I think there was a certain amount of adrenaline thing which meant that the level of pain didn't really register, which is probably why it started to hurt more towards the end.

Analysing the strava data of the ride, despite crashing in the middle, I took 4 minutes off the segment (24:48 down to 20:36). (I also took minutes off various other segments later in the ride (Holtenberg, Lameleberg)).

Sorry to read about your off. Bad luck and hope the knee recovers 100% and soon.

I took 400mg Ibu When I got home, took another 400mg the following day, No visible bruising, no visible swelling now, and it didn't hurt when I cycled to work this morning. I think I may have been lucky.

Quote
As others have mentioned, sounds like diesel or other oil.

Not much you could have done about the initial slide, but locking up on the brakes guaranteed a fall.

One drill I've been taught on a motorcycle skills day is to practice deliberately locking up wheels in controlled conditions, so that you know what it feels like and develop a muscle memory for what to do - which is to let the brakes off instantly. (Especially the front - you can get away with locking up the rear a bit longer). When you've practised hard enough, you can leave a row of black marks on a dry road, like a dotted line.

It may not have saved you - but locked up wheels are not going to regain grip in a helpful way. With the tyres no longer subject to braking forces, they may have regained enough grip to get around the corner.

Interesting. Might have to do some work on my bike handling skills.

Quote
As an aside, is there a cultural difference with PTWs in the Netherlands? Just about every biker I know in the UK, having seen you wipe out, would have stopped to find out if you were alright.

PTWs ? People on Two Wheels?

I don't know if it's a Dutch thing, but I've certainly noticed surprise from people in Sweden, Denmark, and Netherlands when I have stopped to help cyclists by the side of the road. On one ride I stopped to help a couple of guys who had a puncture in .nl, they were first surprised that I stopped, where then even more surprised by the size of the pump I pulled out my bag, and when they asked how far I was cycling that day... was worth it for the look on their face... A guy in Denmark was surprised someone stopped to help him with loan of a better pump when he had a flat. And after I offered help (and was declined) by a Swede, he caught me up a few km later to say thank you for asking.

But then in .nl I have a roughtly 30% success rate of non-muggle cyclists waving/nodding back when I see them on the road... Different cultures I guess...

Cat (the english daughter) rode her Brommie into a Wantage pothole a few years back and suffered what was at the time put down as soft tissue damage on her knee and leg. The only problem was that the real damage was not soft tissue bruising but something far worse and the doctor's advice to keep using the leg to help repair the tissue damage turned out to be the opposite of what was really required. It took 9 months with endless arguements with medical experts and repeated time off work (not to mention pain resisting all known painkillers) to resolve the issue. Moral of story, if the bruising doesn't clear up in a reasonable timescale and the pain doesn't go away scream for a decent specialist who understands knees. Don't let it go unattended!

I'm keeping an eye on it. I doesn't hurt now, there's no visible swelling, and no bruising. But if that changes, I'll see the Huisarts PDQ.

Last night I fixed the rotation of the handlebars that happened when I crashed. They were down at least 10°, it was an easy enough fix, loosen bolts, move, tighten. But I'm not 100% certain there isn't some bending of the handle bars on the X axis of the bike, and also wondering if I should have any concerns about metal fatigue in the handlbars.

The bars themselves are quite cheap BBB ones, but the bar tape was about €50[1], so I'm holding off from replacing them as precaution, but I think I'll keep an eye on it.

Thank you everyone for your help and advice!

J

[1] Bar tape has a scrape on one side from an incident with a NS train, it's fine in use, but I don't believe it will survive taking off and putting on new bars.
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 11:14:16 pm »
I think there was a certain amount of adrenaline thing which meant that the level of pain didn't really register, which is probably why it started to hurt more towards the end.

Yeah, BTDT.  Swelling takes some time to get going, too.


PTW = Powered two-wheeler.  Motorcycles, mopeds, motor scooters, but not usually e-bikes.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2018, 03:51:30 pm »

even if once it had started I perhaps didn't do the right thing to help the situation.


In the case of diesel on corners I'm not certain there's a lot you can do even if you avoid the natural inclination to brake, the last time I came off on it was entering a roundabout, leaned over, had just enough time to register the slip and got to the "d" of diesel before impact. It's evil stuff and can even leave enough residue on the tyres to bring you down on a corner after running through it unknowingly on a straight.

GWS

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2018, 03:55:06 pm »
A few weeks ago on the motorbike I was turning left on a dry road when I felt the front of the bike start to go sideways rather than following the turn. It only slipped briefly before gripping again and nothing bad happened.

It was a line of contamination following around the corner, rather than a patch, so once the wheel had gone sideways enough, there was grip again.

The bike's tyres are very grippy, but they don't grip on oil or diesel. I'm inclined to agree it's most likely something was on the road, be it diesel or something else.


Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2018, 04:12:50 pm »
In the case of diesel on corners I'm not certain there's a lot you can do even if you avoid the natural inclination to brake, the last time I came off on it was entering a roundabout, leaned over, had just enough time to register the slip and got to the "d" of diesel before impact.

That's pretty good going, I normally only get as far as the "f" of diesel...
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2018, 05:43:32 pm »
Cowshit and fenland mud can have much the same effect. BTDT  :hand:
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2018, 08:59:11 am »
In the case of diesel on corners I'm not certain there's a lot you can do even if you avoid the natural inclination to brake, the last time I came off on it was entering a roundabout, leaned over, had just enough time to register the slip and got to the "d" of diesel before impact.

That's pretty good going, I normally only get as far as the "f" of diesel...

 ;D

Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2018, 11:08:02 am »
But then in .nl I have a roughtly 30% success rate of non-muggle cyclists waving/nodding back when I see them on the road... Different cultures I guess...

I was also quite surprised by that; admittedly I was obviously a Brit tourer (cloth cap and no helmet, steel bike, Carradice), but I wasn't expecting quite the degree of stony-faced roadieness I encountered. It's not like the Dutch are particularly shy and retiring the rest of the time...

Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2018, 11:32:58 am »
The absence of waving is sometimes cited as a good thing, evidence that cycling is just another means of transport used by many and not conferring some sort of secret initiate status.
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2018, 12:33:26 pm »
Sure, as a utility cyclist you wouldn't - unless perhaps on a quiet rural bit you might say good morning, just as you would if a pedestrian - but the lycra brigade are very much a minority in NL, so I'd have expected a certain degree of in-group recognition.

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Ran out of Talent.
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2018, 12:36:29 pm »
If they're lycra brigade here, their definition of in-group can be quite narrow.  Ride a bike with the wrong kind of handlebars, and you don't exist, unless you're obviously a fully-loaded tourist (everyone seems to like those).
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...