Author Topic: PBP 2019 ROUTE  (Read 13706 times)

wilkyboy

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PBP 2019 ROUTE
« on: December 10, 2018, 01:54:45 am »
The route is already online on www.openrunner.com, use PBPACP2019 in the search field.

Thanks, Ivo  :thumbsup:

I've set up a watch on these routes and I'm maintaining a RideWithGPS route to mirror the official GPX files, with my own notes and one or two "corrections" where I think the official GPX files are not yet quite right — this is from experience of doing the same for 2015; I suspect many of the "wrong" bits won't be corrected in the official GPXes, but WILL be corrected by the crew putting the arrows out.  At the end of the day, the arrows define the route, NOT the GPX files.

Anyways, here:  https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29026813 — all in one place with cue points and POIs of the controls.

With the whole route in one place, it's interesting to see where the outbound and return routes diverge.  Some of this is the same as 2015, but there are some new bits that look interesting, presumably to bring the distance back up to 1200km with the new start location.  And on that — the official GPXes aren't exactly clear where the start and end actually are!

PBP-first-timers take note that Mortagne-au-Perche is usually a feed-station only on the way out and not an official control; the same with St-Nicolas-du-Pelem.  However, Mortagne IS a full control on the way back, where St-Nicolas is not.  And expect at least one secret control — possibly two — given the extra loops for distance.  And don't forget — it's a mandatory route and you'll be given a time penalty or excluded if caught cutting corners by the many motos patrolling the route.

I'll keep this RWGPS route vaguely up-to-date for now — we're still eight months away, so plenty of time for things to change a bit!  Nearer the time I'll take a closer look and ultimately produce a useful set of various formats [EDIT] and a routesheet (hopefully).

Enjoy  :thumbsup:
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2018, 02:21:45 am »
Thank You!

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2018, 06:56:39 am »
Thanks Nick, I was about to start converting to RWGPS this week, without any previous experience, so would have missed the tweaks!  I for one appreciate the work that you've put in on this.

As an aside, are the "secret controls" actually lit up with huge neon signs saying so, I would hate to sail past them in a sleep deprived stupor!

EDIT: looks a bit confusing in Fougeres, especially doubling back around a couple of roundabouts - I'm guessing that is a RWGPS quirk as often it does?

wilkyboy

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Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 08:23:28 am »
As an aside, are the "secret controls" actually lit up with huge neon signs saying so, I would hate to sail past them in a sleep deprived stupor!

EDIT: looks a bit confusing in Fougeres, especially doubling back around a couple of roundabouts - I'm guessing that is a RWGPS quirk as often it does?

Last time they had crowds of stewards in the road waving riders into the secret control — they weren't short of volunteers, it seems to be such a prestigious event locally that all the old-timers (I mean that honourably) were out and taking part, and seemed to be loving it  :thumbsup:

Fougères is only confusing when you see both routes together — if you saw only the return route then it wouldn't look quite so bad.  However, the organisers do like to take the route through the very centre of towns and villages, and I'm pleased they do, because they are lovely; unfortunately, one-way systems don't always oblige to make the route easy!

Also, I'm waiting to see what they do about the new Fougères bypass — at the moment the route uses the new bypass on the way in and the old inner-ring-road on the way out, and I would've thought they'd use the same in both directions.  So, for the minute I think that's a routing glitch that they haven't noticed, and they'll settle on one or the other both ways.
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2018, 09:09:27 am »
In an article in a Fench bike mag Thierry Rivet of the ACP stated that one of the reasons for different outbound and inbound routes was reducing the amount of left turns in dangerous places.
The different out and back routes for the leg between Loudéac and Carhaix is a good idea. Especially on the first part west of Loudéac the roads are quite small and a lot of cyclists riding in both directions were already a saftey concern. I remember from last time that I had to descend a lot slower directly after Loudéac on the way out as there were so many riders already returning. I couldn't use the left lane and decided not to switch on the high beam for the risk of blinding oncoming riders.
And the shorter route does translate to 1h20 minutes extra sleep  :thumbsup:

wilkyboy

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Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2018, 09:18:40 am »
That's interesting, Ivo, thanks — and that's very much how UK organisers think also, albeit right-turns and straight-over crossroads that lack a central refuge, on busy roads.  It's not always possible to do, but certainly the larger the event and the more visitors from other shores, the more care us organisers take over this sort of thing.

On a similar note, another point I think will change is the outbound route through La Trinité Porhoët at about 425km.  It looks like a lovely little village to pass through and much nicer than its bypass.  However, there would then be a straight-ahead crossing of a main road after the village, which is worse than a left-turn, so I expect we won't get to see the village this time, as we didn't last time, even though last time that was on the GPX (ISTR) — the arrows, though, took us around the village.
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2018, 09:38:38 am »
Thank you, Nick Another RwGPS aficionado here. I, like many others (judging from the leg sheets discarded at many LEL controls), appreciated and used (sometimes) your quartered A4 routesheets for LEL.
"At the end of the day, the arrows define the route, NOT the GPX files." Do the arrows authoritatively {source needed} define the mandatory route?
Does ACP produce routesheets of any sort?
So follow the arrows till they (one thinks they've) run out and then navigate back to the gpx track is the motto, then?


wilkyboy

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Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2018, 09:55:02 am »
Thank you, Nick Another RwGPS aficionado here. I, like many others (judging from the leg sheets discarded at many LEL controls), appreciated and used (sometimes) your quartered A4 routesheets for LEL.
"At the end of the day, the arrows define the route, NOT the GPX files." Do the arrows authoritatively {source needed} define the mandatory route?
Does ACP produce routesheets of any sort?
So follow the arrows till they (one thinks they've) run out and then navigate back to the gpx track is the motto, then?

I did the same style routesheet for PBP2015, and I'm hoping to do so again for PBP2019  :thumbsup: 

ACP does produce a routesheet, but it's in the French style, which is quite different to the more usual style in the UK and I found it lacked the turn-by-turn detail, which is why I bothered to create an alternative in the first place.  The French style seems to be "go to this town and take this road [EDIT] with this D-number, go to that town and take that road [EDIT] with that D-number", which works well in France, where signage is generally very good  [EDIT] and most of the roads are numbered, but there's no corroborating guidance, and generally the actual streets used through the town aren't mentioned, so the assumption appears to be "follow your nose through town".  Since PBP is a mandatory route, I felt something with a bit more detail would be useful ... and over-planning is a thing  :facepalm:

The arrows are EVERYWHERE.  It certainly helps, though, to know how far to the next turn by following progress on a routesheet, or having a pink line to follow.  Somewhere in the Rulez will be a note about the normative route indication, and I'm pretty sure we will be told at some point that it's the arrows, everything else being informative.  You DON'T need a GPS or routesheet to ride PBP, it's just a belt-and-braces thing, and some riders like additional context about where they are and where they're going, instead of blindly following the arrows, lemming-like.

I recall only one location on the return, late at night, where I couldn't see an arrow and had to rely on the GPS to see me through — I don't think it had been nicked, I think I'd just failed to spot it in the gloom, or else the priority went that way, so no arrow required, but the paint on the road wasn't that clear or was non-existent.  Having a backup at that point was certainly reassuring   :thumbsup:
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

jiberjaber

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Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2018, 01:04:27 pm »
Subscribing :)  :thumbsup:
Regards,

Joergen

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2018, 01:39:29 pm »
Thank you, Nick Another RwGPS aficionado here. I, like many others (judging from the leg sheets discarded at many LEL controls), appreciated and used (sometimes) your quartered A4 routesheets for LEL.
"At the end of the day, the arrows define the route, NOT the GPX files." Do the arrows authoritatively {source needed} define the mandatory route?
Does ACP produce routesheets of any sort?
So follow the arrows till they (one thinks they've) run out and then navigate back to the gpx track is the motto, then?
From the 2015 Dossier
ROAD SIGNAGE
- The Paris-Brest-Paris Randonneur is completely signposted with reflective arrow signs to ensure good visibility at
night :
. arrows « BREST » : yellow background, main part of arrow pink with white tip
. arrows « PARIS » : orange background, main part of arrow blue with white tip
. error signs : green background with red X
(error signs are posted soon after crossroads, to save you from taking the wrong direction)
- Road signage does not make it any the less necessary for you to pay attention to the route, especially at night.
Strong front lights in perfect working order are required to light up the reflective arrow signs.

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2018, 03:54:29 pm »
Additionally, my recollection from the anciens providing advice at our recent ACME PBP Pubinar was that in the towns some signs are put up higher than expected to prevent them being mistreated so a head torch might be a desirable addition as they might not be picked out by bike mounted lights.  :thumbsup:
Regards,

Joergen

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2018, 09:53:41 pm »
Thank you, Nick Another RwGPS aficionado here. I, like many others (judging from the leg sheets discarded at many LEL controls), appreciated and used (sometimes) your quartered A4 routesheets for LEL.
"At the end of the day, the arrows define the route, NOT the GPX files." Do the arrows authoritatively {source needed} define the mandatory route?
Does ACP produce routesheets of any sort?
So follow the arrows till they (one thinks they've) run out and then navigate back to the gpx track is the motto, then?

I did the same style routesheet for PBP2015, and I'm hoping to do so again for PBP2019  :thumbsup: 

ACP does produce a routesheet, but it's in the French style, which is quite different to the more usual style in the UK and I found it lacked the turn-by-turn detail, which is why I bothered to create an alternative in the first place.  The French style seems to be "go to this town and take this road [EDIT] with this D-number, go to that town and take that road [EDIT] with that D-number", which works well in France, where signage is generally very good  [EDIT] and most of the roads are numbered, but there's no corroborating guidance, and generally the actual streets used through the town aren't mentioned, so the assumption appears to be "follow your nose through town".  Since PBP is a mandatory route, I felt something with a bit more detail would be useful ... and over-planning is a thing  :facepalm:

In the pre-GPS time I'd follow my compass through larger places in France. On the Michelin map I'd check in which direction the route leaves town. I entered town, cycled to the hightest (church) tower and then followed a compass bearing to the town's exit in the correct direction. This with the exception of Laon where following the ring road is a wiser decision.

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2018, 05:36:35 pm »
one or two "corrections" where I think the official GPX files are not yet quite right

I noted divergences inbound vs outbound at St Meen-le-Grand and Sizun, which may be where you have done these corrections. I asked on the PBP Cafe forum about that and received this response:

Hello,

Yes, it is voluntarily especially to avoid that groups of cyclists going towards Brest cross other cyclists who come back from Brest.
Cycling on either side of a small road could be dangerous.
See you soon.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
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Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2018, 05:52:45 pm »
one or two "corrections" where I think the official GPX files are not yet quite right

I noted divergences inbound vs outbound at St Meen-le-Grand and Sizun, which may be where you have done these corrections. I asked on the PBP Cafe forum about that and received this response:

Hello,

Yes, it is voluntarily especially to avoid that groups of cyclists going towards Brest cross other cyclists who come back from Brest.
Cycling on either side of a small road could be dangerous.
See you soon.

Interesting, thanks.

That's not where I'd thought of "corrections" — the route obviously takes a different approach and return all the way from Carhaix-Plougeur to Brest and back, except for le Roc, and groups of cyclists filling both sides of smaller roads is an obvious hazard the organisers have to mitigate.

Places like Tinténiac (I think) the official GPX takes the route to an inaccessible part of the school, and I can see why they took us in the back gate last time, and suspect they will do the same again, unless the school has been "reconfigured" since StreetView went by — it was exactly the same with the official GPX back in 2015 (I still have the files and I just checked).  And the other places, of which I can't remember off-hand, are in a similar vein.  At some point I'll list them all, but we're so far away from the event itself that there's little point when everything could yet change.
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2018, 06:36:31 pm »
Nick -

I also created RwGPS maps from the OpenRunner links. It appears that our routes diverge at those two towns as well.

Agree that things are likely to keep changing up until closer to the event.

Mark

wilkyboy

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Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2018, 07:09:37 pm »
I just checked my version end-to-end against the official GPXes and found just two places where there were non-intentional route-divergences: navigating the one-way system out of the party-town — oh, yes! :thumbsup: — of Villaines-la-Juhel on the return leg, and the underpass to cross the D828 into Dreux.  All the other places were intentional, either from experience last time, or common sense (there are a couple of roads that look like plotting errors and my opinion is that they will be corrected at some point).

There will be no certainty in any of this until the event is ridden.  That's half the fun — after creating an alternative set of GPS files based on the information available and some hunches, the only test will be to ride it, by which point it'll be too late to make any corrections anyway  :demon:

The arrows!  Follow the arrows!  :P
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2018, 08:10:06 pm »
one or two "corrections" where I think the official GPX files are not yet quite right

I noted divergences inbound vs outbound at St Meen-le-Grand and Sizun, which may be where you have done these corrections. I asked on the PBP Cafe forum about that and received this response:

Hello,

Yes, it is voluntarily especially to avoid that groups of cyclists going towards Brest cross other cyclists who come back from Brest.
Cycling on either side of a small road could be dangerous.
See you soon.

Only the word voluntarily is I think a wrong translation from French and should be read as intentional.

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2018, 10:45:02 pm »
Nick -

See pictures linked below for where your RwGPS route differs from OpenRunner routes in Sizun (outbound) and St Meen-le-Grand (inbound).

Mark

http://www.rusa64.com/rando/Sizun.jpg
http://www.rusa64.com/rando/StMeen.jpg

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
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Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2018, 10:58:36 pm »
See pictures linked below for where your RwGPS route differs from OpenRunner routes in Sizun (outbound) and St Meen-le-Grand (inbound).

Thanks, Mark.  As I said, there were only two non-intentional discrepancies (past tense), the rest are my own hunches at this early stage.

I believe Sizun is a mapping mistake — there's no way they would route us down that tiny backroad out of Sizun for just a few hundred metres, not unless they intend to close the square for a street party — which is possible, but I think unlikely. 

As for St Meen-le-Grand, I believe that could be — 50/50 — a routing error (auto-mapping set to Driving, say), or a real thing due to a road closure, or possibly to avoid a left-turn onto the D166, at the cost of a loop all the way around the town AND two level-crossings.  Last time we followed the route in and out as I've given it.

But it's all a guessing game, and will be until we've ridden this thing  ;D
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2019, 02:49:32 pm »
  And expect at least one secret control — possibly two — given the extra loops for distance.  And don't forget — it's a mandatory route and you'll be given a time penalty or excluded if caught cutting corners by the many motos patrolling the route.
Secret control in Ségrie (SE of Villaines)?

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2019, 02:58:10 pm »
  And expect at least one secret control — possibly two — given the extra loops for distance.  And don't forget — it's a mandatory route and you'll be given a time penalty or excluded if caught cutting corners by the many motos patrolling the route.
Secret control in Ségrie (SE of Villaines)?

It wouldn't be a secret if I confirmed that, now would it?!  :demon: 

However, I have no idea at all whether or where such a control would be, only where it was last time (and there wasn't a toilet)  :P
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2019, 03:17:41 pm »

And don't forget — it's a mandatory route and you'll be given a time penalty or excluded if caught cutting corners by the many motos patrolling the route.

In 2015 riding in a peloton of Japanese on the second night, we missed a sign at a turn.  We realized we had gone wrong when we ended up in a pitch black village with nary a sign or sign of life to be seen. The GPS which had been set on distance and speed was changed to map and left there.  The extra distance meant PBP was 1258km, hoping for a shorter one this year.

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2019, 03:18:48 pm »
Secret controls stop being secret very soon thanks to twitter/instagram/etc. Unless you're in one of the front groups you just need to search for "#pbp secret" at each control and you'll quickly find out where they are way before you get there.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2019, 03:21:25 pm »
Secret controls stop being secret very soon thanks to twitter/instagram/etc. Unless you're in one of the front groups you just need to search for "#pbp secret" at each control and you'll quickly find out where they are way before you get there.

I go into radio silence on rides, so that will not be a problem for me.

Re: PBP 2019 ROUTE
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2019, 03:30:07 pm »
Secret controls stop being secret very soon thanks to twitter/instagram/etc. Unless you're in one of the front groups you just need to search for "#pbp secret" at each control and you'll quickly find out where they are way before you get there.
I am out for a ride (and controlling, eating and replenishing at controls) not poking little electronic devices. #timesink