Author Topic: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000  (Read 1704 times)

Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« on: December 11, 2018, 12:04:45 am »
Just watched Armstrong dispose of Pantani. Regardless of his, and the others, history, he knew how to work. And still looked wrong in the last km.

T42

  • Tea tank
Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2018, 08:07:17 am »
He was always an entertaining rider, and most of the opposition was as doped up as he was. Back then, what I found less than enchanting was his ignoble treatment of anyone who crossed him.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2018, 08:36:13 am »
Back then, what I found less than enchanting was his ignoble treatment of anyone who crossed him.

Which he himself has said is the root of a great deal of the animosity towards him compared to others, who as you say undoubtedly doped just as much.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2018, 08:42:57 am »
When would you say cycling became nominally "clean", by which I mean it was a case of having to go out and find the cheats, rather than an implicit acceptance that "they're all doing it so it's a level playing field"?

Does make you wonder how much of a performance boost any of their performances had relative to others and whether Armstrong would have been so dominant drug free (with all others drug free as well)
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 09:31:23 am »
No way of answering that: you might as well ask how good they would have been if they hadn't trained!

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2018, 09:41:51 am »
They all had high ability. remember Ullrich/Voigt etc were products of the E.german Gymnasium system which selected the one's with potential then weeded out the ones who couldn't/wouldn't follow the plan. Not dissimilar to other teams now. But back then when Armstrong or Pantani lit the fuse they were exciting to watch. esp Pantani who was a tortured artist

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2018, 09:54:44 am »
No way of answering that: you might as well ask how good they would have been if they hadn't trained!

It's definitely a question for a discussion in pub over a beer or two
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2018, 09:58:33 am »
They all had high ability. remember Ullrich/Voigt etc were products of the E.german Gymnasium system which selected the one's with potential then weeded out the ones who couldn't/wouldn't follow the plan. Not dissimilar to other teams now. But back then when Armstrong or Pantani lit the fuse they were exciting to watch. esp Pantani who was a tortured artist

And, regardless of everything else that was going on, racing was exciting.   Making breaks and putting in decent gains made for an enjoyable racing experience.

Getting your team to ride tempo on the front all day and then attacking 2ks out to gain 10 seconds really bores the hell out of me.   I've been watching the last 15mins of the TdF coverage of late.

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2018, 03:35:34 pm »
Back then, what I found less than enchanting was his ignoble treatment of anyone who crossed him.

Which he himself has said is the root of a great deal of the animosity towards him compared to others, who as you say undoubtedly doped just as much.

And why the hell would he think that behaving like a trou de cul (a-hole in your language) should make people like him? It is exactly why Virenque has a big popular following and he doesn't (as far as I know), in spite of their doping actions being essentially similar.
They all had high ability. remember Ullrich/Voigt etc were products of the E.german Gymnasium system which selected the one's with potential then weeded out the ones who couldn't/wouldn't follow the plan. Not dissimilar to other teams now. But back then when Armstrong or Pantani lit the fuse they were exciting to watch. esp Pantani who was a tortured artist

And, regardless of everything else that was going on, racing was exciting.   Making breaks and putting in decent gains made for an enjoyable racing experience.

Getting your team to ride tempo on the front all day and then attacking 2ks out to gain 10 seconds really bores the hell out of me.   I've been watching the last 15mins of the TdF coverage of late.

The two riderss I would have really liked to see (with modern tv coverage) were Gino Bartali and René Vietto. Now they could break up a peloton!

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2018, 04:11:58 pm »
Back then, what I found less than enchanting was his ignoble treatment of anyone who crossed him.

Which he himself has said is the root of a great deal of the animosity towards him compared to others, who as you say undoubtedly doped just as much.

And why the hell would he think that behaving like a trou de cul (a-hole in your language) should make people like him? It is exactly why Virenque has a big popular following and he doesn't (as far as I know), in spite of their doping actions being essentially similar.
Quote from: rob link=topic=110496.msg2349979#msg2349979
[/quote

Umm, that was his point really. He didn't (and probably doesn't) care whether or not he was liked, he cared only about winning. Such people are never popular, especially if they, as he did, win a lot.  Oh, and Virenque is French of course, which helps him immeasurably.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2018, 09:24:52 pm »
Back then, what I found less than enchanting was his ignoble treatment of anyone who crossed him.

Which he himself has said is the root of a great deal of the animosity towards him compared to others, who as you say undoubtedly doped just as much.

And why the hell would he think that behaving like a trou de cul (a-hole in your language) should make people like him? It is exactly why Virenque has a big popular following and he doesn't (as far as I know), in spite of their doping actions being essentially similar.
Quote from: rob link=topic=110496.msg2349979#msg2349979
[/quote

Umm, that was his point really. He didn't (and probably doesn't) care whether or not he was liked, he cared only about winning. Such people are never popular, especially if they, as he did, win a lot.  Oh, and Virenque is French of course, which helps him immeasurably.

Of course Virenque didn't win lots of TdF and have pots of money (and has always taken a bit of interest in the wider picture of the sport and followed other riders a bit) which does endear him to his national public, in and out of cycling circles. Which perhaps shows that it's not the nature of the doping offence that makes the difference, it's all in the rider's aspirations to deification ("it's not what you do, it's the way that you do it..."). I fear that long term Chris Froome will find the truth of this.

T42

  • Tea tank
Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2018, 08:34:13 am »
Back then, what I found less than enchanting was his ignoble treatment of anyone who crossed him.

Which he himself has said is the root of a great deal of the animosity towards him compared to others, who as you say undoubtedly doped just as much.

And why the hell would he think that behaving like a trou de cul (a-hole in your language) should make people like him? It is exactly why Virenque has a big popular following and he doesn't (as far as I know), in spite of their doping actions being essentially similar.

Umm, that was his point really. He didn't (and probably doesn't) care whether or not he was liked, he cared only about winning. Such people are never popular, especially if they, as he did, win a lot.  Oh, and Virenque is French of course, which helps him immeasurably.

Virenque got a lot of stick back then for persisting in his denials when most or all of his team had confessed to being on the juice. He was widely viewed as being a bit thick, and when he finally did cave there was a lot of mockery.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2018, 01:06:33 pm »
He did indeed, but he's still around, if not so much the "Housewifes Favourite" that he was.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2018, 02:34:59 pm »
Apropos of nothing, Replies 9-11 would make a bit more sense/look more readable if the following was chopped from them:

[quote author=rob link=topic=110496.msg2349979#msg2349979

HTH
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2018, 06:49:38 pm »
He did indeed, but he's still around, if not so much the "Housewifes Favourite" that he was.

Even after all these years he is still a star ambassador for Festina watches and I think his name and image is still good enough to sell cheese (although I can't recall seeing that one recently). Probably as much or more the housewife's choice as he ever was, just less of a cyclist's choice (which might show how much the great public are really interested in doping scandals, in France at least).

Somehow one of the places where Armstrong went wrong was in his relations with the TdF management. If he had managed to get them alongside he would at least have had a future somewhere in cycling publicity or management (like so many other ex-dopers). I suppose his character just grated there as well.

T42

  • Tea tank
Re: Lance Armstrong - Hautacam 2000
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2018, 01:33:54 pm »
Apropos of nothing, Replies 9-11 would make a bit more sense/look more readable if the following was chopped from them:

Quote from: rob link=topic=110496.msg2349979#msg2349979


HTH

Right enough.  Difficult to sort out nested tags at times. That one sneaked up on me.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.