Author Topic: SPD -> SPD-SL  (Read 2146 times)

Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2019, 05:26:54 am »
Yes, road racing means bunch start racing. Same would apply to any group ride with sudden changes of pace. TCR is a time trial. No need to change pace suddenly or sprint.  The issue is shifting under load, not high cadence. I can spin up to 180 with flat pedals but my feet are very likely to slip or come out of I shift while I'm doing it!

Get a new cleat fit. Your legs and back will have changed massively after 13000km. What was right then is unlikely to be right now.

Most people will have road cleats so that would be the conservative choice. If you really want to annoy both the crustys and the conservative wannabe racers (and the actual (or ex-?) racers like Karla), skip the cleat fit, go for flat pedals, put your feet wherever it is comfortable and revel in the cognitive dissonance you encounter!


Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2019, 06:01:47 am »
Quote from: quixoticgeek
…..Whether that is the shoes, or the pedals, or the combination, I'm not sure. Physio who's a triathlete suggests that not being clipped in a lot, and the amount of float on the SPD's is at the very least not helping my knees.....

I'm still curious as to what is meant by this; too much, too little, transition into release is wrong...  what???? :o.

  If you don't know find out. Get a second opinion. Understand what exactly is painful and understand the mechanism this is thought to be the cause of this knee pain.

 Knee pain is a serious business and (apparently randomly) buying different pedals and shoes without understanding the true nature of your problem is unlikely to fix it except by accident. A large number of fellow cyclists I have known have had battles with knee pain and in order of causation it has been

1) cleats set wrongly

2) cleats without enough float

3) saddle set too low

4) saddle set too high or other fault in riding position

The third of these above is a tricky one; in its most common form  it only starts to manifest itself as you start to do lots of miles.  As I understand it the vastus medialis is liable to end up underdeveloped if you ride with the saddle too low (it sees most action as the leg come close to being straight), and this tends to pull the kneecap to the outside, and wears the cartilage away. Very painful, and it can ultimately result in you not being able to ride a bike any more.

cheers

This is spot on. 

I've had knee pain from saddle too high, from saddle too low and from saddle too far forward and from cleats misaglined.  I've also had shin pain from cleats too far forward and achilles pain from saddle too high. 

The pain is in different places in your knee, or elsewhere, depending on the cause.  So, the solutions are different.  There's loads of stuff written about this if you search for 'cycling knee pain'.  Loads of people have it and the solutions are simple once you have diagnosed it right.  But for no types of pain is 'buy new kit and expect it to go away' the solution!   

NB for TCR this is really important.  Many people develop pains of some sort round about day 3 that require some sort of adjustment.  When you have ridden a really long distance in just three days, your legs change.  They might get tighter or more flexible.  People who can't work out what to do if they get a pain are very likely to end up scratching.  I had to make significant adjustments 3-4 days in on both TCR and IndyPac to setups that were comfortable at the start and that I had previously used with no problems on other, less-long rides. 


Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2019, 09:47:54 am »
Another thing to consider, that goes back to my comments on stabilisers, is wear to the sole of your existing shoes.
With mountain-bike type shoes the the thick sole treads form the stabiliser function. Wear from walking etc and minor damage from stones etc can alter the shape, meaning that the foot can either be less stable (rocking left side to right side of the shoe), or even alter the angle of the foot in these directions.
Quite a few attendees at Wattbike sessions I see use road shoes with the spd( two bolt) cleat. Several experienced some issues before we showed them the Shimano stabilisers I mentioned further up this thread. Adrian Timmis who, if you don’t recognise his name, is one of the most respected bike fitters and especially shoe plate/ custom insole fitters, is very much of this view.

Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2019, 10:10:35 am »
Another thing to consider (other than the saddle height, cleat position stuff) is an even pedalling style. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I've noticed lots of people who maybe naturally bend one knee out, or maybe have a heel out on every stroke. I have no idea if that's fixable (or even a problem) but it's worth considering...
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2019, 04:23:08 pm »
re the stabilising function mentioned by Giropaul; yes you shouldn't use two-bolt cleats on shoes without a sole recess unless you also have 'pontoon' like stabilisers or similar. Shimano (and others) don't make this adequately clear when they say some shoes are both SPD SL and SPD compatible, but they definitely mean them to be used, not just for SPD cleats to be screwed on directly to the sole so they stick out.

However it is very much the best idea if you are able to set up the cleat so that it is laterally positioned in such a way as (for steady state efforts) you don't really need stabilisers; hence my comment earlier about being very careful about this setting and even doing test rides on pedals which don't offer any support outside the cleat area.

 If you have the support but don't really need it, such things as wear will both be reduced and of less significant effect.

A large fraction of SPD users would benefit from more space between the pedal centreline and the crank. I mentioned packing washers before but for larger changes (thus converting a standard SPD pedal to about the same spacing as the longest speedplay pedal spindle more or less) pedal extenders are a good idea. They cost about £15 and can be used with any 9/16" threaded spindle. Unfortunately the minimum length of the extender is about 14mm or something, so no good for small changes.

It is also worth just mentioning that when shimano were pushing two-bolt SPD for road racing (circa ~1993 ?) they produced two pedals Dura-Ace  PD-7410 and Ultegra PD-6500 which are different from any SPD before or since; they were designed for cleats SM-SH70 and SM-SH71 (although they will work with SM-SH51 etc) and they have ~53mm offset of the pedal centreline from the spindle shoulder. This gives ~4mm narrower Q, if you have narrow enough feet to be able to use the reduced offset.


PD-6500 ultegra SPD


PD-7410 complete with cleats


2002 vintage shimano 'road' cleat application table, including SPD-R cleats (remember them?) but also showing SPD cleats

One of the big differences in SM-SH70/71 is that the lateral adjustment available for the cleat is very much greater than with SM-SH51/56 cleats; however you can only take advantage of this (and fit the stabilisers of course) if you have non-recess type shoe sole.

It is also worth mentioning that in ~1997 shimano revised their SPD pedals; they retained the part numbers SM-SH51 and SM-SH56 for the standard SPD cleats but before and after this date the cleats themselves are different as are the pedals themselves. New cleats in older pedals means less float. Old style cleats in newer pedals means more float than normal. The revised claw design is the big difference between (say) PD-M323 and PD-M324.

cheers

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2019, 05:56:35 pm »
Compressed for neatness:
(click to show/hide)
... but here's the highlight:
GCN did something on it more recently:
https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535
It's a video but the punchline is 'Flat pedals seem to be a tiny bit more efficient than your clipless ones...'
Good googling - thanks!

(Now I wonder what %age of roadies can actually be convinced of this. My success so far is a very round number ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2019, 06:10:20 pm »




I use VP cleats rather than Shimano. They are easier to replace as they split in two making it easier to refit in same position. Also really cheap from PX. As said above all wide cleats are a bit slippery when walking (Look are the worst!) especially as they wear. Spd SL tend to have rubber feet which helps. I don't find it a problem....just be aware.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/PEVPARCSL/vp-arc-sl-shimano-spd-sl-compatible-road-cleats-with-exact-replacement

Thanks for the tip, was totally unaware of these

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2019, 06:27:22 pm »
Compressed for neatness:
(click to show/hide)
... but here's the highlight:
GCN did something on it more recently:
https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535
It's a video but the punchline is 'Flat pedals seem to be a tiny bit more efficient than your clipless ones...'
Good googling - thanks!

(Now I wonder what %age of roadies can actually be convinced of this. My success so far is a very round number ... )

for many years I was a stick-in the mud and didn't change from clips and straps. It is possible that I did the right thing; with the straps loose, I seemed to pedal very comfortably and efficiently, at least for 'steady state' efforts.

Hypothesis; if you feel as if your foot might slip lengthwise, does this somehow encourage you not to make (worthless) radially directed effort on the pedal?  Pushing on the pedal tangentially is what propels you down the road; pushing any other direction is essentially wasted effort.

cheers

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2019, 06:41:30 pm »
...

Hypothesis; if you feel as if your foot might slip lengthwise, does this somehow encourage you not to make (worthless) radially directed effort on the pedal?  Pushing on the pedal tangentially is what propels you down the road; pushing any other direction is essentially wasted effort.

The trouble with your hypothesis is that I doubt anyone has a clue how much radial force riders do apply! It sounds feasible but very difficult to measure properly.

(There must be a PhD in this stuff somewhere. Although funding got a lot scarcer a few weeks back ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2019, 06:49:51 pm »
I have been interested in mid foot pedalling for a little while, on an injury prevention basis. Apparently that helps keep the knee Gremlins away 🤔
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
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Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2019, 07:16:31 pm »
...

Hypothesis; if you feel as if your foot might slip lengthwise, does this somehow encourage you not to make (worthless) radially directed effort on the pedal?  Pushing on the pedal tangentially is what propels you down the road; pushing any other direction is essentially wasted effort.

The trouble with your hypothesis is that I doubt anyone has a clue how much radial force riders do apply! It sounds feasible but very difficult to measure properly.

(There must be a PhD in this stuff somewhere. Although funding got a lot scarcer a few weeks back ... )
The direct force pedal power meters like Garmin Vectors and Powertap P1s should be able to work this stuff out. I don't know if "Garmin Cycling Dynamics" can show you this stuff though.

Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2019, 07:57:41 pm »
I see what your mean but it occurs to me there are passively generated (eg inertial) forces that exist anyway and discriminating those from intentional forces might be difficult, and sometimes some passive effort might be worthwhile.

So for example a radial force with the cranks horizontal might usually be mostly wasted effort. However at the bottom of the pedal stroke the downwards going  leg has inertia but this is only efficiently converted to rotation provided various joints (eg the ankle) are at least held steady; if you suddenly let your ankle joint go floppy near the bottom of the pedal stroke it is quite possible that the leg's downwards inertia would be wasted and  the pedalling action would become inefficient. 

Like Matt says there might be a PhD in this; it certainly ain't going to be simple....

cheers

Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2019, 08:24:24 pm »
SPD-SL is nicer to pedal but a complete PITA in most other respects - walking, clipping in, durability of cleats.
Never tell me the odds.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2019, 03:28:50 am »
...

Hypothesis; if you feel as if your foot might slip lengthwise, does this somehow encourage you not to make (worthless) radially directed effort on the pedal?  Pushing on the pedal tangentially is what propels you down the road; pushing any other direction is essentially wasted effort.

The trouble with your hypothesis is that I doubt anyone has a clue how much radial force riders do apply! It sounds feasible but very difficult to measure properly.

(There must be a PhD in this stuff somewhere. Although funding got a lot scarcer a few weeks back ... )

I think Xavier Disley (Aerocoach)'s PhD was on pedalling Q factor, so you should ring him up and ask where to get funding for this one  :thumbsup:

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2019, 10:24:12 am »
I think this could really go somewhere, with the right backing. I shall call it "Marginal Gains" (which I think is a catchy label).
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2019, 11:28:22 am »
in winter it could be 'marginal chilblains'…..?


{IGMC.....}

whosatthewheel

Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2019, 11:40:14 am »

My physio has suggested that my knee pain is coming about from the amount of float I have on my SPD's, coupled with the small contact area, and that for the amount of riding I'm doing, I'd benefit from moving to road clipless.

Before I hit buy on some PD R550, and a rather expensive pair of Gærne shoes (the only comfortable ones in the shop), is there anything I should be aware of?

What's the best way of working out the correct clear position? Is it something I can extrapolate from my existing SPD shoes/cleat setup?

J

I think your physio is talking nonsense.

Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2019, 05:39:12 pm »
Has your physio suggested lower leg raises to wake up the VMO muscle?  If you've recently started riding more, the quadriceps often develop in an unbalanced way and pull the kneecap outwards as you pedal.  The VMO pulls the other way and keeps it in line.  Generally, you only need to do the exercise for a couple of weeks and then it behaves itself for ever (or as long as you keep riding).

What is your saddle height from BB spindle to saddle top, as a percentage of inside leg?  If it's below 85%, you're asking for trouble as you're trying to put power through a very bent knee.  Mine's at 95%, which is admittedly at the upper end of the scale, but I never get knee problems.

As bobb with the cool hair points out, you should check your pedalling style.  Racers used to be taught to brush the top tube with their knees, in the days of horizontal top tubes.  You shouldn't ride with your knees stuck out.

Float is generally a good thing.  if you have rotational AND lateral float*, even better.

*I don't know what modern pedal system has lateral float, but the original Time system, as used by Indurain et al, used it a a USP when it came out.
Never tell me the odds.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: SPD -> SPD-SL
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2019, 02:30:37 pm »
Compressed for neatness:
(click to show/hide)
... but here's the highlight:
GCN did something on it more recently:
https://www.velonews.com/2014/10/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals_351535
It's a video but the punchline is 'Flat pedals seem to be a tiny bit more efficient than your clipless ones...'
Good googling - thanks!

(Now I wonder what %age of roadies can actually be convinced of this. My success so far is a very round number ... )

I also found this reference to it:

https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40013&t=12890212&sid=6109a7aa24f0a87e8a3b0a4a4987c705&start=20#p17992497
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles