Author Topic: Ice  (Read 1560 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Ice
« on: January 20, 2019, 09:00:55 am »

Temperatures have dropped to below 0°C, and I'm noticing ice starting to form on some of the canals. If the ice gets thick enough, I'm pondering utilising this to get access to some areas I wouldn't normally be able to, in order to bag some veloviewer tiles. The question is: How thick does ice need to be to support the weight of a cyclist? How does a cyclist's ground pressure compare to a skater, or walker?

Any ideas?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Ice
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2019, 09:41:17 am »
http://www.integralhse.co.uk/ice-safety/

I'd go for 75mm minimum according to the above, although I've read 100mm as a min for walking on from other sites.

You'd need to drill holes in the ice, and carry an ice pick, rope, tape measure, wear a life-jacket etc.

Re: Ice
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2019, 10:41:37 am »
Don't do it. Unless you are accessing somewhere like the The Washes in Cambridgeshire (and in your part of the world, you may well be) - where the water floods over fields and is only ever a few inches deep, so when the conditions are right - you end up with hectares and hectares of safe, skateable (rideable with studs) ice. Like this:



I wouldn't trust frozen deep water south of a line roughly consistent with the Arctic Circle. Actually these days, it seems to struggle North of there too  :-\

ETA: If you're thinking along the lines of that video by Lucas Brunelle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oSiWo-m93s) ISTR reading that it had taken weeks of sub -10c to get it to that point.

Re: Ice
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2019, 10:57:07 am »
At what point does obsessive behaviour become self-indulgent stupidity.....?!

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Ice
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2019, 10:58:56 am »
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Ice
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2019, 11:40:07 am »
Write off the possibility of doing it.
https://dutchreview.com/culture/society/why-the-netherlands-will-never-have-an-elfstedentocht-eleven-cities-tour-again/
I've always fancied the idea of doing that - I didn't realise that it is open only to those resident in one of the 11 cities.

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Ice
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2019, 12:01:39 pm »
You don't have to be a resident, you have to be a member of the association (same as being a member of AudaxUK).

There's also the 11-cities-cycle-tour, visiting the same cities. Also very popular (limited to about 25k riders) and it's being organised every year.

As to the thickness of ice: I would only dare it if I see a number of people on the ice and the ice not making those creaking noises.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Ice
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2019, 12:36:52 pm »
Last March there were skaters on central Amsterdam canals when the beast from the east hit. I remember inadvertently cycling onto a lake in January 2016, in the dark, on a Brompton with studded tyres. But the last time I remember actual proper widespread skating in .NL was Jan 2009.



This was the first time I'd ever walked on Natural ice.

75mm-100mm. I'll keep an eye out.

Thanks

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Ice
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2019, 01:38:11 pm »
So now we know why there are so many bicycles in canals! They haven't been dumped, it was just the ice wasn't thick enough ;D

Was 2009 the last year there was that long skating race on the frozen canals. It got a mention on french news but I forget the year.

If you really want to cycle on ice I would have thought a trip to Finland was called for, they have roads and even light railways when the ice is thick enough. Is this a response to not finding sufficient ice on your recent german adventure?

Re: Ice
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2019, 06:42:16 pm »
When I used to work in the Antarctic, we used a "bog chisel" to assess how strong the ice was, the bog chisel basically being a broom handle with a 4-5 cm wide (not very sharp) chisel on the end. If you could get through with one blow, the ice wasn't strong enough (or at least when not wearing a wetsuit); if you couldn't get through with 5 or 6 blows, it was strong enough for a skidoo.

If you were wearing a wetsuit, you could go on ice that you could jab the chisel through from about a foot, and see the ice flexing underneath as you moved.
At one of the other bases (Signy Is), they used to have an annual thin ice race, across the bay and back, wearing wetsuits. This involved dirty tricks, like sneaking up behind someone and kicking the ice under their feet to break it.

P.S.
don't rely on freshwater ice being the same as the saltwater ice we were on.

road-runner

  • is in Slovakia.
Re: Ice
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2019, 06:47:04 pm »
I asked a chap here who was preparing an ice hockey pitch on a frozen pond (which happens every winter). He said that when it is at least 10cm deep they can use the pitch.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Ice
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2019, 07:01:11 pm »
in order to drive cars on the lakes we used to consider it safe if the ice was 15cm or more. 15cm can safely support a (medium-size) tractor, which was used to plough the snow and create a safe racing track - lotsa fun!

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Ice
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2019, 07:05:57 pm »
I've skated on The Fens.  :thumbsup:

Just thought you'd like to know that.  :P
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Ice
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2019, 07:18:49 pm »
I've skated on The Fens.  :thumbsup:

Just thought you'd like to know that.  :P
In a lot of places the fens are 20 cm deep, so they freeze faster, and the risk of dying by falling though is somewhat reduced.
Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

Re: Ice
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2019, 08:02:17 pm »
When I used to work in the Antarctic, we used a "bog chisel" to assess how strong the ice was, the bog chisel basically being a broom handle with a 4-5 cm wide (not very sharp) chisel on the end. If you could get through with one blow, the ice wasn't strong enough (or at least when not wearing a wetsuit); if you couldn't get through with 5 or 6 blows, it was strong enough for a skidoo.

If you were wearing a wetsuit, you could go on ice that you could jab the chisel through from about a foot, and see the ice flexing underneath as you moved.
At one of the other bases (Signy Is), they used to have an annual thin ice race, across the bay and back, wearing wetsuits. This involved dirty tricks, like sneaking up behind someone and kicking the ice under their feet to break it.

P.S.
don't rely on freshwater ice being the same as the saltwater ice we were on.
I love yacf.
Where else could you get information like this?

Re: Ice
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2019, 09:41:10 pm »
there's a Wikipedia page....

https://www.wikihow.com/Know-When-Ice-is-Safe

a little snippet I would contribute is that any body of water, whilst it might have ice on it, can (until the ground is frozen solid too, which takes a very long time)  still have flow beneath the surface, including inflowing tributaries. These transport heat from the ground into the body of water and the ice can be locally a lot thinner than you might expect.  One winter I visited a lake in a high valley in the Alps and the ice was very thick indeed. Folk used to drive on it regularly. However the lake was very long and some tributaries still flowed into it, long after everything appeared to be frozen. This meant that there were several places in the lake which -invisibly- could have very thin ice indeed.  Accidents of the worst kind were not unheard of.

cheers

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • 3x Brimstone ancien 3x Pendle/Tan Hill DNF
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: Ice
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2019, 04:24:52 pm »
It was subzero in Den Haag for about 3 weeks last Feb-Mar, and I asked the locals about the 11 cities.  The problem with the canals is that there are often hidden outflows/inflows where they are pumping water.  Around these areas (and underneath bridges) there tends to be thin/weak/absent points. 

Local knowledge is the real asset.  There were certainly people skating on lakes on the dunes.
Eddington Numbers 123 (imperial), 168 (metric) 516 (furlongs)  110 (nautical miles)

Re: Ice
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2019, 05:10:14 pm »
there's a Wikipedia page....

https://www.wikihow.com/Know-When-Ice-is-Safe

a little snippet I would contribute is that any body of water, whilst it might have ice on it, can (until the ground is frozen solid too, which takes a very long time)  still have flow beneath the surface, including inflowing tributaries. These transport heat from the ground into the body of water and the ice can be locally a lot thinner than you might expect.  One winter I visited a lake in a high valley in the Alps and the ice was very thick indeed. Folk used to drive on it regularly. However the lake was very long and some tributaries still flowed into it, long after everything appeared to be frozen. This meant that there were several places in the lake which -invisibly- could have very thin ice indeed.  Accidents of the worst kind were not unheard of.

cheers

That's an interesting resource but I see they got an answer wrong

Quote
I want to take my 3150 kg Hummer ice fishing. What would be a good minimum blue ice thickness?
wikiHow Contributor
Community Answer
About 12-18 inches would be good, but it is not recommended.

Should have been, anything from 3" should be absolutely fine.

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Ice
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2019, 05:22:32 pm »
The village pond across the road from my primary school comfortably bore the weight of about 30 children almost every evening throughout January 1963. Despite all that exposure to a lovely large flat sheet of ice, I was so useless I never had the confidence to slide as the other kids did.

When we were at college in the early 1970s, Mrs. Wow went on a biology fiend trop* to Grizedale. One of her group walked out onto the tarn and sat on his shooting stick. The ice groaned loudly but he didn't go through, but he didn't hang around once he heard it. I think the daytime temperature was below -10°C all the time they were up there. Jan told me that the nightly minimum for the 4 or 5 days they were there was -23°C.

*I liked it so much I didn't bother to correct it
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Re: Ice
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2019, 02:13:55 pm »
Several years (but less than a decade) ago there was a very snowy winter in Scotland and our local canal froze so that people could walk on it. I did walk on it and it felt very odd. Other people also cycled on it. IIRC the snow started falling onto an unfrozen or thinly frozen canal so a big layer of frozen ice/snow developed. Also that canal is not that deep.
Towards the end of the cold snap some idiot decided to drive his car along the canal; he got on fine until he got to a bridge. Underneath the bridge the ice was thinner and the car went through. He driver was prosecuted for something; dangerous driving I think. I could probably find a news report if I could be bothered.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Ice
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2019, 04:09:36 pm »

Re: Ice
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2019, 09:44:31 pm »
in order to drive cars on the lakes we used to consider it safe if the ice was 15cm or more. 15cm can safely support a (medium-size) tractor, which was used to plough the snow and create a safe racing track - lotsa fun!

The local ice racing club (Georgetown, CO) requires that the ice be 12 inches (30 cm) thick before they will hold races.

Re: Ice
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2019, 01:28:31 pm »
Seem to remember someone falling through very thick ice on a Scottish loch. The water level was controlled by a dam as part of a hydro electric scheme and had been drawn down leaving a gap between the ice and the surface of the water. Under those conditions even the thickest ice isn't safe.
Hear all, see all, say nowt

Re: Ice
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2019, 03:21:07 pm »
The ice racing club I referred to does in fact use a small reservoir, part of a pumped storage hydroelectric system. Maybe that's why they insist that the ice be 30 cm instead of 15 as zigzag said.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Ice
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2019, 09:58:29 pm »
yes, we used to race(skid) on standard natural lakes with no artificial heat sources nearby