Author Topic: Unofficial PBP  (Read 4268 times)

Graeme

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Unofficial PBP
« on: January 31, 2019, 08:14:10 am »
 :facepalm:

I see a few disgruntled comments about already-booked-plane-tickets etc... shorter queues on the unofficial PBP. I do hope there won't be a problem with freeloaders this August. I remember stamping cards at the end of one of my own events, and handing out complimentary food and drink, when one cyclist said to me, 'Oh no, I don't have a card, I was just riding round'. I'm not sure that freeloaders are aware of how unpopular they are. #NotClever
37. Because travel is the finest educational system of all; and cycling the cheapest, easiest, and most educational means of travel - Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2019, 08:50:52 am »
'Oh no, I don't have a card, I was just riding round'

It's a strange parallel world - does it happen much? I've heard there are riders on the Bryan Chapman who are just tagging along. Were there such riders for LEL 2017?

I suppose the answer would be a "no brevet card, no access to facilities" approach - but it seems tough for organizers to be required to police things this way.

I've often thought of planning a DIY to coincide with a local sportive to give the route the added interest of riders to chase down - but of course I wouldn't then use the facilities (such as they are) provided by the sportive organizers.

Tomsk

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Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2019, 09:15:54 am »
Certainly happens occasionally on our ACME events, usually mates tagging along with an official entry. Not really a problem on 'X' rated pub start/finish events, and otherwise they have the good grace to avoid freeloading on the arrivee food.

On PBP there's usually very strict checking of brevets against riders' frame numbers at the start and finish; along the way at controls I'm not so sure, though I think bike security is the main priority. I've seen club-mates accompanying and encouraging riders on the final kms - no frame numbers, luggage, looking fresh, but careful to not provide shelter. That'll be the law-abiding French for you - not quite the anarchists this side of the ditch.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2019, 09:47:08 am »
To give a voice to the sincere, if I went unofficially on any audax I would not make use of the facilities.  Just the roads and the atmosphere.

Interesting point about DIYing.

Graeme

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Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2019, 10:17:46 am »
Would the 'roads and the atmosphere' be there if the organiser hadn't gone to the trouble of putting an event on? Would having a 50/50 mix of those taking part and those riding unofficially change that dynamic? What would be the tipping point? Does the organiser's risk assessment mean anything - and for this I'm thinking about the documents I have to provide to the Humber Bridge Authority for permission to run my event over their bridge. If there were similar risk assessments required by French authorities - what could the impact be of free-spirits tagging along - might it jeopardize the whole event in the future? I hope there isn't a groundswell movement to just ride the event anyway... look what happened to Glastonbury to prevent 'people coming along anyway'.
37. Because travel is the finest educational system of all; and cycling the cheapest, easiest, and most educational means of travel - Kuklos' 39 Articles

T42

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Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2019, 10:41:40 am »
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2019, 12:46:34 pm »
Where do you draw the line between riding your own "event" on what are after all public roads and freeloading? On the Ball Buster 200 last year I got talking to a rider I know a bit and it turned out he hadn't officially entered. The event sells out very early (places open 1st Jan, sold out already, event is 7th April this year) and he hadn't secure a place. I'm not sure what he did at controls but here's the first thing: on this event, the controls are run by local charities. All the money raised by selling food goes to them. There's also a charity box (for a nominated national charity) at the start/arrivee. And I've never known them run out of food, despite being a perennial tail ender. And the second thing: this particular rider is not a big audaxer but is heavily involved in the local cycling community/scene/economy, working in a local cycling charity and used to be on the editorial team of Boneshaker magazine before that closed. I don't think his presence in any detracted from the event and probably raised a few more quid for the various charities.

He's probably not the typical "riding with my mate" non-entrant, who might simply be skimping on a few quid entry fee, and clearly it's different where there are organiser-provided facilities, as on PBP.
At some point in the ride, you might find yourself in Osaka with Spanish speakers where you had expected Edinburgh talking Greek. This does not mean you are lost, or even off route.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2019, 12:48:40 pm »
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.

^ So unlikely to happen that It isn't worth mentioning, I suspect.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 01:39:36 pm »

It's a strange parallel world - does it happen much? I've heard there are riders on the Bryan Chapman who are just tagging along. Were there such riders for LEL 2017?

There was at least one famous case on LEL 2017

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104426.0

The two of us were volunteers at Barnanrd Castle, and I have to admit, I never noticed him!

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 01:50:09 pm »
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.

Yes, you are right, but it seems to become a standard practice here that no matter how carefully you plan your event, a growing number of freeloaders will come, and in some cases, might completely ruin your event. Think about some recent gilets jaunes events. At the beginning, it was just about cheering/honking others at roundabout before it turned into serious clashes between heavily armed freeloaders and riot  police...  Anyway I think you should expect serious police checks before/during the next PBP.


T42

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Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 03:15:21 pm »
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.

^ So unlikely to happen that It isn't worth mentioning, I suspect.

I've had to cancel events declared two months in advance because a vintage-car tour suddenly wanted to use the same roads: they pay, we don't.

The préfecture clobbered a good few events in our area by demanding marshals at all intersections. OK, not because of freeloaders but simply because the prefect took a scunner against cyclists, citing the European Parliament as an excuse: he didn't want accidents cluttering up the roads.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

vorsprung

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Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 08:46:49 pm »
I used to think that this was very rare and basically it didn't happen

However, since running my own 400km (Avalon Sunrise 400) event I've found that it does happen

On my event, the extra people are insignificant for eating extra pie at the controls and I've never had trouble with an accident involving uninsured riders
Audaxing Blog follow @vorsprungbike on

Bianchi Boy

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Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 10:45:45 pm »
Yes but the point here is that you should not be a t***t. Would you just go into someones house and make a cup of tea and say. Oh well just passing and you have plenty of tea bags left? Where does this end?

 :-\

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2019, 12:26:52 pm »

It's a strange parallel world - does it happen much? I've heard there are riders on the Bryan Chapman who are just tagging along. Were there such riders for LEL 2017?

There was at least one famous case on LEL 2017

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=104426.0

The two of us were volunteers at Barnanrd Castle, and I have to admit, I never noticed him!

Sounds like rogue motorhomes were the real problem rather than rogue riders.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2019, 09:43:40 pm »
Organizing here means submitting declarations to all the préfectures along the route, complete with maps, route sheets and insurance certificates. PBP goes through 9 préfectures, and any one of them can deny you a road, most likely one that continues into the neighbouring préfecture.

If trouble arose - accidents etc. - as a result of a significant number of freeloaders, the préfectures probably would make trouble for the organizers simply for attracting them.

^ So unlikely to happen that It isn't worth mentioning, I suspect.

I've had to cancel events declared two months in advance because a vintage-car tour suddenly wanted to use the same roads: they pay, we don't.

The préfecture clobbered a good few events in our area by demanding marshals at all intersections. OK, not because of freeloaders but simply because the prefect took a scunner against cyclists, citing the European Parliament as an excuse: he didn't want accidents cluttering up the roads.

A few events (sportives) in our area got hit like that and had to cancel because they didn't have enough bodies available as marshals. We almost suffered the same fate with one of our randonnées, initially having a demand for marshals to control all the junctions and having to explain at length that we weren't a race and that our riders rode as individuals and were bound to obey the Code de la Route. The préfecture doesn't understand the differences between racing and touring (not helped by UFOLEP sportives being described as cyclotouriste events)

Back to the OP there was a PBP DIY route. There was a ride report on the Randonneur Longue Distance forum a few years ago. I will have to trawl and see if I can find it to link (all in french I'm sorry)

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2019, 10:01:55 pm »
Is the moral argument any different if the event is fully subscribed?  Is it freeloading if they were willing to pay, but couldn't?  I appreciate they're still unwelcome but they presumably pay their taxes too and have the same right to use the roads.
Never tell me the odds.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2019, 10:40:21 pm »
Is the moral argument any different if the event is fully subscribed?  Is it freeloading if they were willing to pay, but couldn't?  I appreciate they're still unwelcome but they presumably pay their taxes too and have the same right to use the roads.

Well, it depends if you take a legalistic or a moral view.
Riding the route in any of the other 51 weeks is ok.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2019, 11:02:09 pm »
Is the moral argument any different if the event is fully subscribed?  Is it freeloading if they were willing to pay, but couldn't?  I appreciate they're still unwelcome but they presumably pay their taxes too and have the same right to use the roads.

Well, it depends if you take a legalistic or a moral view.
Riding the route in any of the other 51 weeks is ok.

The road is available to all (unless it's been closed, eg Etape du Tour, certain other sportives).
Eating the food provided by the controls when you are not entered in an event is theft, pure and simple (just like not paying in a bar or restaurant). It doesn't matter that you might have liked to pay up and ride; you are not in, it is theft.
The moral problem comes when you follow waymarking or a GPS track done by others for a paying event. Someone marks the public highway, legally there is nothing to stop you following it. But morally you are profiting from some one else's work without paying for it.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2019, 11:21:06 pm »
PBP perm   http://pbpaujourlejour.over-blog.com/

Apparently there is an official FFCT PBP permanent. I will find it

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2019, 07:58:13 am »
Potential participants shouldn't get the impression that there is any food other than at the finish included in the price of PBP.

You pay as you go along, and the prices at controls aren't too far out of line with commercial offers. However, they are open overnight.

The web has changed the perception of PBP. It makes it seem accessible to all, a sort of right. Before the 1990s you would only have heard of PBP through riding Audax, or in magazines, which you would have paid for. Knowledge came at a price. You also would have had no means of demonstrating that you'd done the route. Making up your own Brevet card would have looked a bit sad. But on Strava your followers could be giving you kudos.

Kim

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Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2019, 08:00:36 am »
Kudos on Strava doesn't mean anything, thobut.

Well, that's not quite true.  It seems to be a function of the time of day you upload the ride:  I tend to get more kudos for 5km trips to the shops than I do for proper rides.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2019, 08:01:44 am »
Kudos on Strava doesn't mean anything, thobut.

Well, that's not quite true.  It seems to be a function of the time of day you upload the ride:  I tend to get more kudos for 5km trips to the shops than I do for proper rides.

How did they react when you did PBP?

It's a similar story to those who decide they'll have a go at the LEJOG record on their own, using Strava as proof. The average punter can't see the distinction between that and the RRA record.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2019, 08:24:02 am »
The moral issue is also that a certain amount of non official riders on the road will cause issues for the organisation. Issues with the authorities who place a maximum amount of riders.
This is not only the case with PBP but also with other big events. So if you wish to destroy an event, go ahead, ride with your mates on the official day on the official course and cause the authorities to withdraw permission for the next edition, ruining a participation next time for yourself and for others.

Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2019, 08:33:59 am »
Of course that only stands for events which require permission from the authorities.

Bianchi Boy

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Re: Unofficial PBP
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2019, 08:54:26 am »
People keep confusing the legal and moral aspects. Yes it is legal to ride PBP at the same time as the official ride, and when I tode it there was a group of riders who were joined by friends for part of the route. But it is not good practice and it makes you a t**t and a thief if you use any of the controls.

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Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.