Author Topic: Six Nations 2019  (Read 6882 times)

Wowbagger

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2019, 05:42:01 pm »
If you have any kind of bonus point system, it will create alleged anomalies.

If you award points for big try hauls, then of course there will be a flip-side. In this case, draws aren't worth very much.

(In practice, the funny-shaped ball game creates so few draws that it's not a big issue. In the sensible-shaped ball game, 3-points-for-a-win makes a big difference to tactics.)

My personal preference in these round-robin systems is to have Result-between-the-two-teams as the first "Decider" - in which case Wales could not finish behind England.

Agreed.

I know you are amongst those who don't consider chess a sport, but because of the nature of the game there are some well-tried and tested means of breaking ties, which are very common in the typical weekend Swiss-paired event - a hybrid between league and knockout tournament in which typically a group of 40-odd competitors will compete over only 6 rounds. Basically, your opponent in each round will be, as far as possible, on the same score as you are.

When I began controlling tournaments over 30 years ago, the first tie-break was sum-of-progressive-scores, which gives weight to games won early on. The chances are that if your SOPS is high, you will have had to play stronger opponents than someone whose SOPS is low. The next tie-break was sum-of-opponents'-scores. The drawback of this was that in the final round two very strong players might be looking at what a couple of rabbits on board 18 were doing before they knew who had won.

Then, someone had the bright idea of taking the game between the protagonists as the first tie-break criterion and FIDE changed the rules. It generally works well, but I can remember one event where there was a tie for first place in which player A beat B, B beat C, C beat D and D beat A. It was our club championship and I was one of the 4. I think in the end we agreed to share first place.

If England do win the title as a result of a Wales-Ireland draw, that will be most unsatisfactory. This bonus point nonsense really makes it pot luck. If a good side plays Italy on a lovey dry pitch in Rome in March, they are far more likely to notch up a hatful of points than if they play them in Murrayfield on a wet February afternoon when there's little chance to show off ball-handling skills.
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mcshroom

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2019, 05:48:43 pm »
The problem with the head-to-head tie-breaker comes if Ireland beat Wales next week. You would be in the situation where Ireland have to come higher than Wales, Wales have to come higher than England, but also England have to come higher than Ireland.

I can see the point of the bonus points, as it gives some extra interest to the games themselves, and otherwise you would end up with it being points difference only. However, I can agree with the 3 points for a grand slam too, as it would seem a little strange for a team that won 4, but gained 6 bonus points (5x4 tries, plus 1 for losing by less than 7) could come out 2 points above the team that beat them if that team collected no bonus points at all.
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mattc

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2019, 06:02:34 pm »
yes, of course you could still get a 3-way "daisy-chain" tie ! But then you bring the other deciders in, by agreed sequence.
(the 3-way will be rarer than the 2-team version) England's +83 points difference should be deservedly rewarded, some might say ... :P
The next decider could well be a bonus-point system  like the current one. All just MHO, and I plan to bet Wowbagger 50 notes that Wales will beat Ireland, to make this all irrelevant ;)


There is another loophole in the current system which I haven't heard mentioned - if a team scores 3 tries, and is leading by 11 points as the 80mins is up, its in both teams interest to play on until  one of them grabs the extra bonus point!
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Wowbagger

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2019, 06:55:37 pm »
There is always the (perfectly satisfactory) situation in which a title can be shared. I can't see how anyone suffers from that situation. It won't retract from the games - they will already have been decided. It won't detract from the spectacle.
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Jaded

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Mr Larrington

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2019, 03:34:46 am »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Five_Nations_Championship

But if it had been the Six Nations back then the winner would presumably be the one who hammered Italy the hardest ;D
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Wowbagger

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2019, 09:34:05 am »
Points difference was not used until more recently. In 1973, everyone just won their home games.

For the purposes of positioning in the table, the teams were placed in order of points difference, but the title was still a 5-way tie.
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Mr Larrington

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2019, 02:06:42 pm »
Also: France.  WTF ???  First unchanged team for 16 years, play like they first met in the tunnel.
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Basil

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #58 on: March 16, 2019, 03:03:46 pm »
I appear to be the only person in the village not wearing a Wales top.
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T42

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2019, 03:11:05 pm »
France wins 26-14* but the Italian captain is man of the match. Eloquent.

*or thereabouts
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Wowbagger

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2019, 04:05:21 pm »
I appear to be the only person in the village not wearing a Wales top.

It’s looking like excellent news st the moment.  :thumbsup:
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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2019, 06:24:39 pm »
Where has this Scottish side been fot the last 8 weeks?

England need to start playing again.

Steph

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2019, 06:48:05 pm »
Smugly satisfied with our championship and Grand Slam.

Astonished at the Scots comeback!

Depressed that they only get fired up when playing the English. If they can play as they have done this second half, as Matthew effectively says, why not more often and against teams other than England?
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simonp

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2019, 07:02:39 pm »
I was right about Wales winning the slam.

I was wrong that we wouldn't have enough to stop England.


Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2019, 07:06:41 pm »
What a final day! Three brilliant games. I feel gutted for the Italians though.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

ElyDave

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2019, 07:09:33 pm »
Ireland capitulation, they've really underperformed this year.

England WTF? That is the bizzarest game I've ever seen. It really did look like two different games. I know that kind of lapse will be punished at the world cup.  Some of those Scotland tries should have been snuffed out thirty yards from the line.
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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #66 on: March 16, 2019, 07:50:21 pm »
We were in the pub for all three matches. Just before I left we got a one word text from Tomas Francis (Wales tight end prop who is from our village), it said "Party!"
His Dad and cousin went down to Cardiff to see the match, I hate to think what state the three of them will be in later tonight.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Jaded

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2019, 10:06:32 pm »
I listened to the England game driving back from Birmingham. When I started listening it was 31-0, but the Champioship was already gone, after a stunning Welsh display.

As an Englishman who can be a Scot I was most disappointed that England managed to scrape a draw.
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Jaded

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2019, 09:11:27 am »
And a technical question, without that last try, would yesterday have been the first time a team received two bonus points in a match?
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Mr Larrington

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2019, 01:06:58 am »
Just binge-watched all three of yesterday's games.  WTF did someone slip into the Sweaties' half-time Irn-Bru ???
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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2019, 08:25:12 am »
And a technical question, without that last try, would yesterday have been the first time a team received two bonus points in a match?
No as you get three bonus points for winning the Grand Slam. So in the match that seals a Grand Slam you could get 4 Bonus points if you scored four tries as well. Wales got 3 bonus points on Saturday.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Jaded

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2019, 08:26:17 am »
I meant England, who had four tries and were about to lose by 7 points or less.
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mattc

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2019, 08:46:32 am »
And a technical question, without that last try, would yesterday have been the first time a team received two bonus points in a match?
No as you get three bonus points for winning the Grand Slam. So in the match that seals a Grand Slam you could get 4 Bonus points if you scored four tries as well. Wales got 3 bonus points on Saturday.
So they got 3, not two! ;)
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Wowbagger

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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2019, 08:29:57 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_ftDaeVTOE

I found this video of Saturday's Wales v Ireland first half. Can someone tell me what language the commentators are speaking please?
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Re: Six Nations 2019
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2019, 08:33:27 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_ftDaeVTOE

I found this video of Saturday's Wales v Ireland first half. Can someone tell me what language the commentators are speaking please?

I'd guess Georgian.

(Based on the general sound, some specific words, and also after googling the name of the person that uploaded the video.)

Enabling subtitles is amusing.
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