Author Topic: PBP hi viz vest  (Read 10555 times)

PBP hi viz vest
« on: February 06, 2019, 10:29:00 am »
At the risk of starting a discussion of EU regs, I wanted to check what the deal is with the PBP hi viz vests. This will be my first PBP, and I'm aware of the rules for cycling after dark in France, and the requirement of having hi-viz that meets the specified standards. I assume, as someone who doesn't currently own anything suitable to meet that, the easiest thing is going to be to use the one that I'll be paying for as part of my entry fee. Is there any good reason not to do that, and if so can anyone recommend an alternative that will be suitable for cycling? (i.e. not big and flappy or boil-in-the-bag non-breathable). For the included vests, are they given out when you get there and sign in? Is there a choice of sizes, or do you just get what you're given / one-size-fits-all?

Thanks!  :)

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2019, 10:41:41 am »
In previous years (2011 is my only experience) you've ordered one when you complete your registration (i.e. you've done 3/4 of your qualifiers). I think I collected mine at registration (after the bike check) along with the bottles and jersey I'd purchased. You get to pick sizes when ordering.

The 2011 one was a good fit (not flappy) and not boil in the bag, mine still gets used every so often now (although all of the lettering has long since fallen off).

The following google image search will give you an idea: https://www.google.com/search?q=2011+pbp+gilet&tbm=isch
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

T42

  • Tea tank
Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 10:47:15 am »
The 2015 one was good for fit & not excessively BITB, although the logo on the back did create a sweaty patch. I still use it though.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 10:52:24 am »
Great - thanks for the quick replies :) Looks like that's one thing I can cross off my list of pre-PBP things to worry about ;)

wilkyboy

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Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 11:11:30 am »
Note that if you "run hot", like me, then the PBP gilet is heavy and horribly sweaty.  Obviously everyone's different.

It is a good fit, though.
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 11:16:00 am »
It came at no additional cost in 2015.  The standard has been replaced by ISO 20471 and so is intenational now.  I have a ISO 20471 mesh high viz vest I got in the USA.  But I may just go with the one they hand out as my warm layer for overnight. 

SPB

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 11:47:49 am »
If you do think the official vest looks a little flappy and unbreathable, Wowow make vests which are CE EN1150 approved.  I got the "Maverick" and think the cut is really good.

Can be hard to source in the UK but Hollandbikeshop* carries them. 

*Buy before 29th March if we leave with no deal though, to save import fees.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 11:48:45 am »
Some of the Proviz kit claims to meet EN ISO 20417 but I note that they say "Material conforms to" not "garment conforms to"


mattc

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Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 11:59:36 am »
Some of the Proviz kit claims to meet EN ISO 20417 but I note that they say "Material conforms to" not "garment conforms to"
That suggests "does not conform to" !!!

If it doesn't have stripes - and the Proviz I've seen does not - then it ain't compliant.

And I think Proviz is known to be a tad more B-I-T-B than regular cycling stuff ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

SPB

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 12:14:53 pm »
The Proviz stuff (at least the stuff of theirs I have) is all reflective, no fluorescent.  Needs a defined minimum amount of both to meet certification, I understand.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 12:28:47 pm »


I have a runners Hivi vest thing. It packs down tiny (smaller than an inner tube), and has a CE certification -https://amzn.to/2Rgr6X1

It's made of mesh so doesn't boil you. On me the fit is rather snug, so there is no flapping. My only fault is I'd rather they came in orange, since the yellow hivi seems to have interesting additional connotations these days.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2019, 12:36:03 pm »
From what I recall of the EN standard (oddly, I don't read it every morning) that vesty thing wouldn't pass. I think they'd mention it clearly in the description if it was certified.

But it does look like it provides a very useful amount of visibility. And is certainly more breathable than "standard" builders hiviz (or the PBP#11 vest, for that matter).  :thumbsup:

Are "CE" more of a manufacturing quality thing? And not likely to choke you, things like that?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2019, 12:37:28 pm »
AIUI CE = does what it says on the tin, as opposed to being a confirmation of standards. If it doesn't say ENxxxxx then it isn't.
The unwilling rider and the one who leaves each control in turn without reluctance, with no desire to come back, obviously cannot be making the same journey, even though their brevets are identical.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2019, 12:45:11 pm »

Just dug it out of my bag. Here's the label:



J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2019, 12:51:03 pm »
I've had various discussions on hi viz apparel in UK bike shops, with a common outcome.  1) They weren't aware of any regulations, 2) they didn't have anything that complied with the regulations, 3) they tried to sell me something that wasn't going to work. 

You might be luckier than me but might also want to source something via Bike24 or Decathlon.  Or settle for the one the organisers provide.  I'm still using my 2015 one as it is a lot more visible than most of the c&*p UK bike shops have tried to sell me, even though the zip bust a long while ago.
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 168 (metric) 518 (furlongs)  111 (nautical miles)

SPB

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2019, 12:51:35 pm »
@quixoticgeek Is 13356 enough?  I've been unsuccessful finding the regs again but, from memory, it was minimum EN 1150 or EN 471 (the latter superseded maybe). 

SPB

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2019, 12:52:47 pm »
I've had various discussions on hi viz apparel in UK bike shops, with a common outcome.  1) They weren't aware of any regulations, 2) they didn't have anything that complied with the regulations, 3) they tried to sell me something that wasn't going to work. 

You might be luckier than me but might also want to source something via Bike24 or Decathlon.  Or settle for the one the organisers provide.  I'm still using my 2015 one as it is a lot more visible than most of the c&*p UK bike shops have tried to sell me, even though the zip bust a long while ago.

See my post reply#6

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2019, 12:53:29 pm »
Just dug it out of my bag. Here's the label:

[EDIT] Image removed, label shows EN13356

As far as I can tell that won't satisfy the French legal requirement.

That requires EN471 or EN1150.

(My gilet from PBP 2011 has EN1150 on the label.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

SPB

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2019, 12:57:01 pm »
@quixoticgeek Is 13356 enough?  I've been unsuccessful finding the regs again but, from memory, it was minimum EN 1150 or EN 471 (the latter superseded maybe).

"According to French traffic law, a high visibility vest MUST be worn when riding at night (EN 1150 or EN ISO 20471 certified to meet international safety standards)."

from article 9 of the regs http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2019, 01:08:19 pm »
@quixoticgeek Is 13356 enough?  I've been unsuccessful finding the regs again but, from memory, it was minimum EN 1150 or EN 471 (the latter superseded maybe).

EN471 covers 3 classes, depending on the use case, Class 1 is the minimum, and Class 3 is the maximum. To meet class 1 you need:

CLASS 1
Minimum background material 0.14m2
Minimum Retro-reflective material 0.10m2
i.e. Minimal risk such as off road activities. Hi-vis trousers will commonly meet this standard when worn separately from upper garments.

Class 2 needs a bit more, but not much:

CLASS 2
Minimum background material 0.5m2
Minimum Retro-reflective material 0.13m2
i.e. Arco code 1880500 2 Band & Brace Hi-vis waistcoat

To get to class 3 tho, you need the extra length of full sleeves to provide enough material.

En471 is aimed at professional use. In theory if you're a highway worker you need your kit to be EN471. EN1150 is for non-professional use and says:

"Even for a small adult (158cm tall – 5ft 2in) a garment must incorporate a total of at least
0.32 m² of visible fluorescent material and 900 cm² of visible reflective material. In terms of
sheets of A4 paper, that is equivalent to about 5 sheets of fluorescent and 1½ sheets of
reflective material.
• These materials can be applied as a number of bands or panels but these must be
distributed reasonably evenly around the whole garment.
• Fluorescent material can be yellow, green, orange, red or pink (including a combination of
these)
• No piece of fluorescent material can be less than 50 mm (2 inches) wide *
• No piece of reflective material can be less than 25 mm (1 inch) wide*
• No single piece of reflective material can be smaller than 25 square centimetres in area
which is equivalent to a strip about 1inch x 4 inches or a 2 inch square*
• If a garment has sleeves, there must be at least one reflective panel/band on each sleeve. "

So no, the vest I link to doesn't comply. Interestingly, if you look up EN13356, it is a standard for accessories, and not for garments:

"This standard specifies the optical performance requirements and surface area requirements for accessories intended for non-professional use, and intended to signal the user's presence visually when illuminated by vehicles on dark roads. The accessories can be worn, attached to or carried by persons. This standard does not apply to garments."

So in theory, this vest does not comply with the minimum legal requirements to be a hivi vest for French law. *HOWEVER*, it's a hivi, it has an EN number and a CE approval label. So if you're wearing it, the chances of being stopped are slim, and the chances of the cop that pulled you over knowing that EN1156 is not enough, are slim...

There is a gap in the market for well thought out EN1150 garments for cyclists that don't suck...

@quixoticgeek Is 13356 enough?  I've been unsuccessful finding the regs again but, from memory, it was minimum EN 1150 or EN 471 (the latter superseded maybe).

"According to French traffic law, a high visibility vest MUST be worn when riding at night (EN 1150 or EN ISO 20471 certified to meet international safety standards)."

from article 9 of the regs http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/index2.php?lang=en&cat=randonnee&page=reglement

Lucky I'm not wearing it for PBP...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2019, 01:13:47 pm »

Lucky I'm not wearing it for PBP...

J

Lucky Trans continental does not come through France this year or you would need a compliant hi viz...

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2019, 01:15:05 pm »
Anyway there will once again be a compliant hiviz provided as part of entry to PBP

The registration fee includes:
• participation in Paris-Brest-Paris Randonneur 2019
• official water bottle
• official reflective vest
• hot meal at the finish
• official document pouch
• PBP 2019 frame number
• PBP 2019 brevet card
• PBP 2019 rider follow-up
• engraved souvenir medal (if you are homologated)
• medical evacuation insurance according to the insurance contract
• arrow signs on the course
• supervision by official cars and motorcyclists
• access to the various checkpoints and food stops
• emergency support at the checkpoints
• results brochure and 19th Paris-Brest-Paris Randonneur® DVD sent to your address in early 2020

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2019, 01:17:44 pm »

Lucky Trans continental does not come through France this year or you would need a compliant hi viz...

Yeah, I haven't worked out what I'm gonna do about that one...

Every EN1150 hivi design sucks, big time. It's like they haven't been designed by someone who actually cycles. In countries other than France Hivi's for cycling are seen as a winter item, so it doesn't matter that it boils you. It's even worse finding one that fits over breasts.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

SPB

Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2019, 01:18:13 pm »

Lucky I'm not wearing it for PBP...

J

Sorry, you threw me there by posting about it in the PBP thread about hi viz  :)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: PBP hi viz vest
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2019, 01:19:07 pm »
Anyway there will once again be a compliant hiviz provided as part of entry to PBP

The registration fee includes:
• official reflective vest

Yes, but as mentioned by a number of people, it sucks as an item to wear, esp if it's warm.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/