Author Topic: Value for money in the Audax world  (Read 4125 times)

Martin

  • Give me bas relief
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Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2019, 09:18:12 pm »
Looking forward to your £1.55 event WATW  :P

Sounds like a plan, might even give it a go.

The late, great Nik Peregrine did pretty much that:  £1 in those days.

yes I remember doing one; the first control was in someone's house with a table full of free cake!

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2019, 09:30:23 pm »
Looking forward to your £1.55 event WATW  :P

Sounds like a plan, might even give it a go.

The late, great Nik Peregrine did pretty much that:  £1 in those days.

yes I remember doing one; the first control was in someone's house with a table full of free cake!

[OT] I completed Nik's ride without a bike; his abode was a few doors from my B&B so I thought it simpler to dump the bike at the B&B before getting my card stamped etc.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2019, 10:28:21 pm »
I'm offended by this whole topic, and I'm probably just a little grateful that I don't know the identity of our friend Whosatthewheel.  Putting together an Audax event doesn't just happen.  Some of the intangibles are: working out a decent route, identifying where the controls are going to be and whether these controls can cope with and welcome the expected numbers, tweaking the route to meet AUK's requirements, etc.  Even after you have an established event, you'd probably need to constantly review whatever is on offer, so it's an ongoing cost.

It's never £6 for nothing, or £6 for just a brevet card, or a brevet card and validation, or for a GPX file (which has nil material value, but is priceless as intellectual property).

What do I do with my surplus?  Look after my controllers and helpers (who you may not even see on the day)?  Make contributions to club funds?  Pay for my own riding entry fees (grossly overpriced as they might seem)?  Buy myself a beer as I worry about that last rider who hasn't yet finished (only to find out the rider finished hours ago and didn't let me know)?  Buy myself another beer as I handle yet another rider query, or defending myself against accusations of profiteering?  Frankly, that's my business (but hint; it's all of the above and more, but I'd pay attention to those beer references). 

It's a good job there are a small number of people prepared to put in the effort.  At times like this, I consider whether I should make Mrs DelphCyclist happy and allow others to continue the good work.  (And yes, I'm happy to hide behind a pseudonym too, although I reckon I may have blown my cover on previous postings)

I think you may be in the wrong club, Whosatthewheel.

Amen.

I've not organised, but I've run a control on a full on 400 and I've been controller on a few times. Sometimes I get food for free, but I don't get paid for travel or time.

I have the utmost respect for Organisers and what they do for Audax.

Cannot really see why others wouldn't.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #78 on: February 20, 2019, 09:22:42 am »
I've never organised any ride more complex than an evening pub ride for a dozen or so – pick a pub, devise a route, meet people, ride, drink beer, go home – but I'd say what you're paying for in an audax is not cards and stuff, it's the existence of the event itself.
"Pick a flower on Earth and you move the farthest star."

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #79 on: February 20, 2019, 09:32:46 am »
I've never organised any ride more complex than an evening pub ride for a dozen or so – pick a pub, devise a route, meet people, ride, drink beer, go home – but I'd say what you're paying for in an audax is not cards and stuff, it's the existence of the event itself.

Sorry, I don't understand. There are plenty of events that exist without a fee... there is no fee on existence... probably the most famous one is the Dunwich Dynamo.

What you are paying for is the all validation process (cards, AUK fee, stamps when needed etc..) and if you are not AUK member, then you pay extra for third party insurance for the day. You might or might not put a price on the the time an organiser takes to put everything together, which is in short the topic of this apparently outrageous thread.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2019, 09:41:49 am »
Sorry, I don't understand.
Well there we have it, an excellent summary.

Perhaps we can all move on now ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2019, 09:43:51 am »


Perhaps we can all move on now ...

For a change I might even agree with you... :thumbsup:

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #82 on: February 20, 2019, 09:49:42 am »
This whole thread is plumbing new depths in my opinion. Has Audax really been reduced to penny-pinching about what an entry fee represents? Entry fees represent such a small portion of the overall cost of my chosen hobby, I can honestly say that I hardly ever give it a thought. Premier Inn/Travelodge the night before/after and food as I go round ...well, that's a different matter!  ;)   

JayP

  • You must be joking
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #83 on: February 20, 2019, 10:14:03 am »
Well that's it then? We can ignore the skinflints and, what's more, new tax allowances, now in force, mean you can take up to £1000 in entry fees and you don't even  have to tell the Taxman.
So get organising and fill yer boots

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #84 on: February 20, 2019, 10:50:19 am »
It's nice to see that the desire for greater diversity in Audax is being met. We shouldn't assume that we'll agree with the views of all of the newcomers, and it's a measure of the openness of the activity that people feel free to express their own ideas.

I've moved away from cycling for various reasons, so I won't be meeting this new breed of participant. Now would seem to be a good time to express my appreciation for all the efforts of the organisers of the rides I've enjoyed over the years.

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2019, 11:23:34 am »
This whole thread is plumbing new depths in my opinion. Has Audax really been reduced to penny-pinching about what an entry fee represents? Entry fees represent such a small portion of the overall cost of my chosen hobby, I can honestly say that I hardly ever give it a thought. Premier Inn/Travelodge the night before/after and food as I go round ...well, that's a different matter!  ;)

... and I appreciate your point of view, but the problem is neither you nor I. Having 75% of my entries for July from non AUK members, I am determined to make sure they perceive their are getting their pounds worth of event. Riding a £ 12 sportive with all the frills last sunday was a bit of an eye opener, as I never previously questioned the fact that Audax events were the best bang for buck, when it comes to organised rides. Am I still so sure?

If we want more diversity at our events (new riders, maybe more demanding riders, maybe younger riders), then surely we have to look at what's out there and try to entise those who would otherwise be lured by sportives or charity rides. It's not the 6 quid per se, I know it's spare change for most, but when you show up and all you get is a paper card to fold in your rear pocket and you are not sure what to do with your validation, you might end up wondering what this Audax malarkey is all about and maybe (just maybe) you won't get involved after all

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #86 on: February 20, 2019, 12:16:19 pm »
This whole thread is plumbing new depths in my opinion. Has Audax really been reduced to penny-pinching about what an entry fee represents? Entry fees represent such a small portion of the overall cost of my chosen hobby, I can honestly say that I hardly ever give it a thought. Premier Inn/Travelodge the night before/after and food as I go round ...well, that's a different matter!  ;)

... and I appreciate your point of view, but the problem is neither you nor I. Having 75% of my entries for July from non AUK members, I am determined to make sure they perceive their are getting their pounds worth of event. Riding a £ 12 sportive with all the frills last sunday was a bit of an eye opener, as I never previously questioned the fact that Audax events were the best bang for buck, when it comes to organised rides. Am I still so sure?

If we want more diversity at our events (new riders, maybe more demanding riders, maybe younger riders), then surely we have to look at what's out there and try to entise those who would otherwise be lured by sportives or charity rides. It's not the 6 quid per se, I know it's spare change for most, but when you show up and all you get is a paper card to fold in your rear pocket and you are not sure what to do with your validation, you might end up wondering what this Audax malarkey is all about and maybe (just maybe) you won't get involved after all

...and that's where I think you and I differ. An audax event never leaves me wondering what I've got for my money. I joined AUK in late 2015 and since then, judging by membership numbers, there have been over 5000 new members. That's pretty decent growth for a niche organisation! It also tells me that people see what genuinely good value it is. It also confirms what I have always found; Actual audax riders are a very friendly and welcoming bunch. In direct contrast to some of the 'e-audaxers' you might encounter online!  :P

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #87 on: February 20, 2019, 12:23:27 pm »
This whole thread is plumbing new depths in my opinion. Has Audax really been reduced to penny-pinching about what an entry fee represents? Entry fees represent such a small portion of the overall cost of my chosen hobby, I can honestly say that I hardly ever give it a thought. Premier Inn/Travelodge the night before/after and food as I go round ...well, that's a different matter!  ;)

... and I appreciate your point of view, but the problem is neither you nor I. Having 75% of my entries for July from non AUK members, I am determined to make sure they perceive their are getting their pounds worth of event. Riding a £ 12 sportive with all the frills last sunday was a bit of an eye opener, as I never previously questioned the fact that Audax events were the best bang for buck, when it comes to organised rides. Am I still so sure?

If we want more diversity at our events (new riders, maybe more demanding riders, maybe younger riders), then surely we have to look at what's out there and try to entise those who would otherwise be lured by sportives or charity rides. It's not the 6 quid per se, I know it's spare change for most, but when you show up and all you get is a paper card to fold in your rear pocket and you are not sure what to do with your validation, you might end up wondering what this Audax malarkey is all about and maybe (just maybe) you won't get involved after all
Get a grip. There have always been some amazing events run by lovely people under all sorts of banners.

You might find that most AUKs have a less blinkered view - just because we don't (generally) ride sportives, doesn't mean we think those involved can be tarred with the planet's widest brush. Perhaps that's what this thread is about:

***BONG***

whoasatwheel discovers that the world isn't as b&w as he thought! Read all about it!

***BONG***
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #88 on: February 20, 2019, 12:27:54 pm »
Riding a £ 12 sportive with all the frills last sunday was a bit of an eye opener

I think that event was a massive outlier. I know people who pay £20/30/40 for events like that, and many of the frills aren't even what they're after , which is a nice bike ride with other riders on a route someone else made the effort to plan. Getting that for £6* feels like amazing value.

(* Alright, £9 once you add the Web Developer Ferrari Surcharge)

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #89 on: February 20, 2019, 12:28:15 pm »
...and that's where I think you and I differ. An audax event never leaves me wondering what I've got for my money. I joined AUK in late 2015 and since then, judging by membership numbers, there have been over 5000 new members. That's pretty decent growth for a niche organisation! It also tells me that people see what genuinely good value it is. It also confirms what I have always found; Actual audax riders are a very friendly and welcoming bunch. In direct contrast to some of the 'e-audaxers' you might encounter online!  :P

I did my first Audax in 2009 or thereabout, the mighty AAA rated Kent Invicta Grimpeur, which was magnificently organised with a lavish provision of food at start, mid way and finish for the usual entry fee of a couple of shillings.
It then took me ages to join AUK, mainly because I wasn't interested in long brevets and the points associated, so I joined only much later. But I did a few as non members, always BP.
Most brevets are fantastic and you can see the passion of the organisers.... but I've also come across a few that were a waste of time, in some cases literally, meaning the GPX file was wrong, the organiser knew it, but wasn't bothered anough to fix the problem. Had one of the latter been my first event (incidentally one with nothing other than a card provided), I would have probaly been imprinted into thinking Audax were a bit of an acquired taste and not for me  :P

The social element is nice, I am not much of a bunch rider and tend to ride solo or as a pair... village halls do wonders to help being social as opposed to rainy car parks or busy cafes

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #90 on: February 20, 2019, 12:35:19 pm »


I think that event was a massive outlier. I know people who pay £20/30/40 for events like that, and many of the frills aren't even what they're after


I paid 50 to ride the Fred Whitton in 2016... I knew very well I wasn't going to get 50 quid worth of ride, because they widely advertise the fact that over the years they have raised over a million for charity. I was totally fine with that.
I'd probably do it again if accomodation in the lakes was a bit more affordable

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #91 on: February 20, 2019, 12:45:28 pm »
This whole thread is plumbing new depths in my opinion. Has Audax really been reduced to penny-pinching about what an entry fee represents? Entry fees represent such a small portion of the overall cost of my chosen hobby, I can honestly say that I hardly ever give it a thought. Premier Inn/Travelodge the night before/after and food as I go round ...well, that's a different matter!  ;)

... and I appreciate your point of view, but the problem is neither you nor I. Having 75% of my entries for July from non AUK members, I am determined to make sure they perceive their are getting their pounds worth of event. Riding a £ 12 sportive with all the frills last sunday was a bit of an eye opener, as I never previously questioned the fact that Audax events were the best bang for buck, when it comes to organised rides. Am I still so sure?

If we want more diversity at our events (new riders, maybe more demanding riders, maybe younger riders), then surely we have to look at what's out there and try to entise those who would otherwise be lured by sportives or charity rides. It's not the 6 quid per se, I know it's spare change for most, but when you show up and all you get is a paper card to fold in your rear pocket and you are not sure what to do with your validation, you might end up wondering what this Audax malarkey is all about and maybe (just maybe) you won't get involved after all

The thing here I think is about a slight misunderstanding of how AUK events are marketed and listed on the website.

An AUK ride with no resources provided by the organiser beyond validation will be listed on the website as an X rated event. That means it's aimed at those of us who are self reliant, and able to cope with doing a 100+km ride with no support, and just a route to follow. I don't believe that X rated events are intended as a person's first introduction to Audax, sure they can be, but that is not their purpose. As such for someone who has done their 12 quid sportivs and the like, they would likely be better off looking at one of the many non X rated AUK events, where you do get tea at the start, and cake at the controls, and soup to warm up at the finish, and all of that for 7 quid.

Comparing X rated events to sportivs for value for money is not a fair comparison.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #92 on: February 20, 2019, 01:02:24 pm »
The thing here I think is about a slight misunderstanding of how AUK events are marketed and listed on the website.

An AUK ride with no resources provided by the organiser beyond validation will be listed on the website as an X rated event. That means it's aimed at those of us who are self reliant, and able to cope with doing a 100+km ride with no support, and just a route to follow. I don't believe that X rated events are intended as a person's first introduction to Audax, sure they can be, but that is not their purpose. As such for someone who has done their 12 quid sportivs and the like, they would likely be better off looking at one of the many non X rated AUK events, where you do get tea at the start, and cake at the controls, and soup to warm up at the finish, and all of that for 7 quid.

Comparing X rated events to sportivs for value for money is not a fair comparison.

J

I don't disagree with you, but you will find that none of the events I was referring to was actually officially an "X rated" event, quite possibly because was a cafe' finish and therefore someone sitting for a few hours to wait for the riders to finish as opposed to postal finish, .
You will also find that rarely the symbol for "some free or reasonably priced food is provided" is used by organisers, so it's always difficult to tell from the website what is available, unless clearly stated in the description.
I tend to assume that anything above 5 quid will have something on offer, even if it's only a paid for roof and a cup of tea.*

*I'm very needy, I know


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #93 on: February 20, 2019, 01:10:06 pm »
I don't disagree with you, but you will find that none of the events I was referring to was actually officially an "X rated" event, quite possibly because was a cafe' finish and therefore someone sitting for a few hours to wait for the riders to finish as opposed to postal finish, .
You will also find that rarely the symbol for "some free or reasonably priced food is provided" is used by organisers, so it's always difficult to tell from the website what is available, unless clearly stated in the description.
I tend to assume that anything above 5 quid will have something on offer, even if it's only a paid for roof and a cup of tea.

Maybe then this is an issue with categorisation and the symbols used ? (Categorisation is hard... - https://amzn.to/2EktqnR)

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

whosatthewheel

Re: Value for money in the Audax world
« Reply #94 on: February 20, 2019, 01:14:01 pm »


Maybe then this is an issue with categorisation and the symbols used ?

J

Then the new website is going to be a lot clearer...  ;D :thumbsup: