Author Topic: Intermediate control timing per country  (Read 1739 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Intermediate control timing per country
« on: February 11, 2019, 02:58:37 pm »


Something that has come up in a couple of threads is how different organisers/countries seem to handle timing of intermediate controls on audaxes. In .NL, noone cares about your timing as long as you get to the Arrivé in the time limit, but my understanding is the Germans are more strict about this and you better be on time at every control.

What have people found the experience like with Audaxes internationally (yes that includes AUK), do people care about the intermediate controls?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2019, 03:07:16 pm »
Audax uk is hit and miss , but generally you will be ok or less its a manned control then you may find your out!!
Germany are strict, rules are rules and if you cannot get to the control on time generally your out
Pbp is fairly strict,  but if your delayed for a good reason they will let you continue, but you will be expect to get back in time after a couple of controls.

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2019, 03:10:43 pm »
do people care about the intermediate controls?

Yes, especially if there is a manned staffed control. 

Intermediate times are also applicable on my Perms, although as these are determined by the start time, outside of my control, I am unlikely to spot any transgressions unless the rider is really taking liberties.  I consider that managing the schedule within the overall time limit (such as sleeping during a 600) is all part of the challenge, especially in the build up to PBP.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 03:15:10 pm »
Audax uk is hit and miss , but generally you will be ok or less its a manned control then you may find your out!!
Germany are strict, rules are rules and if you cannot get to the control on time generally your out
Pbp is fairly strict,  but if your delayed for a good reason they will let you continue, but you will be expect to get back in time after a couple of controls.

Do the Germans take this into account when route planning? If you had a hypothetical route with two controls, 20km apart, and just a 10% hill between the two all but the fittest wouldn't be able to make it up that climb at ≥15kph. But the remaining 180km could be a descent then pan flat along a river, making the full time limit plausible, but just that intermediate control to control timing really hard.

Yes, especially if there is a manned staffed control. 

Intermediate times are also applicable on my Perms, although as these are determined by the start time, outside of my control, I am unlikely to spot any transgressions unless the rider is really taking liberties.  I consider that managing the schedule within the overall time limit (such as sleeping during a 600) is all part of the challenge, especially in the build up to PBP.

For a staffed control would you accept alternative point of passage? Say someone arrived late, got a receipt from the pub, and continued on to make it to the end inside the time limit. Say they were delayed by a stonking headwind, or a mechanical?

Do you plan the routes to make this achievable (see above about climbing) ?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2019, 03:20:00 pm »
You play the ball as it lays. If there is a bloody big hill in the way, then you leave the previous control with sufficient time to be inside the limit at the control after the big hill.

Audax Oz and RUSA tend to take a fundamentalist approach to intermediate control times but there are individual exceptions.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2019, 03:29:16 pm »
You play the ball as it lays. If there is a bloody big hill in the way, then you leave the previous control with sufficient time to be inside the limit at the control after the big hill.

That doesn't work if the first control is the start... Hence wondering if there is conscious planning choices made in the route for such things?

Quote
Audax Oz and RUSA tend to take a fundamentalist approach to intermediate control times but there are individual exceptions.

Useful to know.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2019, 03:33:32 pm »
Rather than making up hypothetical routes, how about you look at real routes?

Audax Oz has a system where the organiser can modify the closing times of intermediate controls, if the national body agrees. Otherwise not.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2019, 03:35:49 pm »
Rather than making up hypothetical routes, how about you look at real routes?

Audax Oz has a system where the organiser can modify the closing times of intermediate controls, if the national body agrees. Otherwise not.

a) because there are a lot of routes out there
b) because not all organisers have published routes yet
c) I am curious as to how it works for other countries and the thought processes involved

However I'm sorry for asking, I didn't realise it would be such a contentious thing to ask. I'll shut up now.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2019, 03:41:18 pm »
That doesn't work if the first control is the start... Hence wondering if there is conscious planning choices made in the route for such things?

Designing a route with a 2000m climb in the first 20 km and a timed control at the summit couldn’t really be anything other than a conscious choice.

On any real world route (i.e one that doesn’t involve alpine mountain passes) the climbs average out over the typical long-ish distance between controls, so if you can’t get between any two controls you’re unlikely to complete the whole route anyway.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2019, 03:41:38 pm »
Some organisers are bastards and aim to time out as many riders as possible by every means.

Others are somewhat sympathetic and use the 'sticky hands on the clock' method to ignore that some folk time out at intermediate or finish controls. That method doesn't work if subjected to excessive scrutiny.

Others design their routes to be gentle to riders. There would be few countries with multiple organisers that are 100% consistent for all organisers. Why bother trying to do so?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2019, 03:50:16 pm »
The Norwegians are very strict.

My first 1000km brevet was not homologated due to missing a control by 1 hour (all controls were of the ATM/tankstation/shop kind, would have been silly to have true manned controls as I was the only rider ;D) I finished with 2 1/2 hours in hand and no additional time was awarded for the 3 1/2 ferry crossing to Denmark.

So knowing how the organizers deal with the rules can be rather important; it would have been no problem getting to that control in time had I wanted to (it was the first control after a long sleep and elaborate breakfast).

Getting a homologation on that brevet is still high on my bucket list!

The organizers of Borders of Belgium were relaxed about the intermediate closing times; only the two staffed (and rented) locations had true deadlines.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2019, 03:58:48 pm »
Designing a route with a 2000m climb in the first 20 km and a timed control at the summit couldn’t really be anything other than a conscious choice.

True. Do such things happen? I've only directly experience Danish, Dutch, and Belgian organisers, and they have all been universally wonderful.

Quote
On any real world route (i.e one that doesn’t involve alpine mountain passes) the climbs average out over the typical long-ish distance between controls, so if you can’t get between any two controls you’re unlikely to complete the whole route anyway.

You say that, but something I've noticed looking at many AUK routes compared to similar distance routes in .NL, there are a lot more controls on AUK rides than Dutch ones. The first audax I did had 2 controls, at 84km and 163km. Which roughly worked out as 84km slogging into a headwind hoping to make it within the cut off (not realising the Dutch aren't fussy about it), then 80km with the wind at my back(or across me). With headwinds like these, it feels like the time is spent climbing a mountain. But looking at some AUK, they have 5+ plus for a similar event (esp if counting info's)

Some organisers are bastards and aim to time out as many riders as possible by every possible means.

This is the sort of thing I am trying to find out. I've only experienced nice organisers. Seems a bit sadistic to try to time people out intentionally.


Quote
Others are somewhat sympathetic and use the 'sticky hands on the clock' to ignore that some folk time out at intermediate or finish controls. That doesn't work if subjected to excessive scrutiny. Others design their routes to be gentle to riders. There would be few countries with multiple organisers that are 100% consistent for all organisers. Why bother trying to do so?

Looks like I've been spoilt by the organisers I've experienced then. Given everyone had said that all the German organisers had been very strict on their timings, I did wonder if there is a policy at a national level in some places.

I was obviously too naive in my thinking and question asking. I'm so sorry.

The Norwegians are very strict.

My first 1000km brevet was not homologated due to missing a control by 1 hour (all controls were of the ATM/tankstation/shop kind, would have been silly to have true manned controls as I was the only rider ;D) I finished with 2 1/2 hours in hand and no additional time was awarded for the 3 1/2 ferry crossing to Denmark.

Could you not have claimed the clock was wrong on the ATM? I noticed this on one of the BRM's that went into .BE from .NL last year, the clock on the til hadn't been updated for the day light saving time change, so it looked like I was late at the control, I tried to explain this to the organiser at the end, which is when Ivo explained to me that it wasn't an issue (I had GPX to back up that I was in time).

Quote

So knowing how the organizers deal with the rules can be rather important; it would have been no problem getting to that control in time had I wanted to (it was the first control after a long sleep and elaborate breakfast).

Getting a homologation on that brevet is still high on my bucket list!

Can you share the name (feel free to PM if you prefer). Sounds like useful info to know.

Quote
The organizers of Borders of Belgium were relaxed about the intermediate closing times; only the two staffed (and rented) locations had true deadlines.

Yeah, staffed controls it makes sense not to keep humans waiting. My question was just for unstaffed controls.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2019, 04:05:29 pm »
The Norwegians are very strict.

My first 1000km brevet was not homologated due to missing a control by 1 hour (all controls were of the ATM/tankstation/shop kind, would have been silly to have true manned controls as I was the only rider ;D) I finished with 2 1/2 hours in hand and no additional time was awarded for the 3 1/2 ferry crossing to Denmark.

That sounds like the Kristiansand 1000km, which I'm signed up to ride in June. If so, that's useful to have the heads up in respect to the intermediate cut-off times.

Also thanks to quixoticgeek for raising this discussion. Its always going to be variable by organiser, but general trends per country is a useful insight to have.

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 05:24:48 pm »
My first 1000km brevet was not homologated due to missing a control by 1 hour (all controls were of the ATM/tankstation/shop kind, would have been silly to have true manned controls as I was the only rider ;D)

You're lucky to get a receipt in this country where the clock is less than an hour out, that's partly why most organisers (myself included) take a fairly relaxed view on this.
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 06:37:22 pm »
I really did arrive after closing time so claiming a broken ATM clock would not feel right to me. At first sight their calculations seemed odd* but after discussing this it was clear they were following the letter of the ACP. Yes, I was (and still am a little) annoyed, mostly at myself, but it's not the end of the world.

The brevet in question is indeed the Kristiansand #1. Don't forget to bring industry-strength mosquito/midge repellent! Start is at 19:00 but I was allowed to change this to 17:00 (made more sense to me because of the ferry departure times in Göteborg at that time).

* although you get 75 hours for a 1000km brevet, meaning an average of 13.3 km/h, the first 600km have a minimum average speed of 15 km/h

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2019, 06:56:58 pm »
That sounds like the Kristiansand 1000km, which I'm signed up to ride in June
Sweet! Which one will you be riding? There's the #1 which starts on the 7th and 27th and goes through Sweden with finish in Hirthals/Denmark and the #2 that starts on the 28th and is basically two loops from Kristiansand; no ferry on this one but more hills.

I may ride one of the #1's depending on how the 600km Rando Imperator goes in early May (I'm noticeably less fit now than two years ago :-[)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2019, 07:00:12 pm »
I really did arrive after closing time so claiming a broken ATM clock would not feel right to me. At first sight their calculations seemed odd* but after discussing this it was clear they were following the letter of the ACP. Yes, I was (and still am a little) annoyed, mostly at myself, but it's not the end of the world.

I can see why it would be rather annoying. Esp if you;re not used to that interpretation.

Quote

The brevet in question is indeed the Kristiansand #1. Don't forget to bring industry-strength mosquito/midge repellent! Start is at 19:00 but I was allowed to change this to 17:00 (made more sense to me because of the ferry departure times in Göteborg at that time).

* although you get 75 hours for a 1000km brevet, meaning an average of 13.3 km/h, the first 600km have a minimum average speed of 15 km/h

Wait, on a 1000, even tho it's an average speed of 13.3kph, you are supposed to do the first 600 at 15kph? doesn't that give you a speed of 11.43kph for the final 400 ? Doesn't that fuck with pacing?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2019, 07:25:57 pm »
Well, if they plan a control right after 600km and then the next at say 750km you can have a good sleep  :D

But the rules are indeed weird. If I recall clearly for a 1200 the minimum avg for the first 600km is 15 km/h, then it's 11.4 for the next 400 and 13.3 for the remaining 200.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2019, 07:38:35 pm »
Well, if they plan a control right after 600km and then the next at say 750km you can have a good sleep  :D

But the rules are indeed weird. If I recall clearly for a 1200 the minimum avg for the first 600km is 15 km/h, then it's 11.4 for the next 400 and 13.3 for the remaining 200.

*blink* say what now?!?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2019, 07:52:10 pm »
Well, if they plan a control right after 600km and then the next at say 750km you can have a good sleep  :D

But the rules are indeed weird. If I recall clearly for a 1200 the minimum avg for the first 600km is 15 km/h, then it's 11.4 for the next 400 and 13.3 for the remaining 200.

*blink* say what now?!?

RUSA have summarised it here: https://rusa.org/pages/acp-brevet-control-times-calculator
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2019, 07:58:04 pm »
The ACP's rules state:
"Closing: 1 hour + 20 km / h (km 1 to 60); 15 km / h (km 61 to 600); 11.428 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute."

LRM don't seem to have any detailed rules online for how their controls might work.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2019, 08:01:27 pm »
The ACP's rules state:
"Closing: 1 hour + 20 km / h (km 1 to 60); 15 km / h (km 61 to 600); 11.428 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute."

LRM don't seem to have any detailed rules online for how their controls might work.

That makes sense. How does AUK do it for validated by GPX DIY's over >700km ?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2019, 08:11:22 pm »
I'd check with your particular organiser but "they don't check" is probably not far off the mark.

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2019, 09:03:59 pm »
That sounds like the Kristiansand 1000km, which I'm signed up to ride in June
Sweet! Which one will you be riding? There's the #1 which starts on the 7th and 27th and goes through Sweden with finish in Hirthals/Denmark and the #2 that starts on the 28th and is basically two loops from Kristiansand; no ferry on this one but more hills.

I may ride one of the #1's depending on how the 600km Rando Imperator goes in early May (I'm noticeably less fit now than two years ago :-[)

I've entered the #1 starting on 7th June. My travel is all arranged, but I haven't yet looked at the logistics on the ride in any detail.

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2019, 08:31:46 am »
The Norwegians are very strict.

My first 1000km brevet was not homologated due to missing a control by 1 hour (all controls were of the ATM/tankstation/shop kind, would have been silly to have true manned controls as I was the only rider ;D) I finished with 2 1/2 hours in hand and no additional time was awarded for the 3 1/2 ferry crossing to Denmark.

So knowing how the organizers deal with the rules can be rather important; it would have been no problem getting to that control in time had I wanted to (it was the first control after a long sleep and elaborate breakfast).

Getting a homologation on that brevet is still high on my bucket list!

The organizers of Borders of Belgium were relaxed about the intermediate closing times; only the two staffed (and rented) locations had true deadlines.
Good thing too as the first control after the first sleep stop had a really early official time as I recall.

I think this is only an issue on multi day rides. It would be unusual to have a control so close to the start that a single hill would cause out of time.

I've seen too many clocks on tills being way off to think it's reasonable to time people out on unmanned controls.
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