Author Topic: Intermediate control timing per country  (Read 2511 times)

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2019, 08:40:17 am »
Well, if they plan a control right after 600km and then the next at say 750km you can have a good sleep  :D

But the rules are indeed weird. If I recall clearly for a 1200 the minimum avg for the first 600km is 15 km/h, then it's 11.4 for the next 400 and 13.3 for the remaining 200.

*blink* say what now?!?

J
Essentially the first 600 is timed lime a 600 and then you gradually recover time from 600 to 1000 for the 13.33 overall limit. Which is the same average for a 1200 so the last 200 is at the real average speed.

I would prefer a system where the average between controls was always 15kph and the additional 8.33 hours was assigned at sleep controls
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

whosatthewheel

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2019, 08:41:40 am »
I find the problem is rather the opposite... being too early at the first control, which is often the case if the first few km are flat and there is a large group.

Being late at intermediate control means being late at the arrivee, unless that's due to an accident or serious mechanical...

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2019, 09:00:25 am »
During my 2016 1000 I was out of time between the 500 and 950km marks. A nice tailwind and knowledge of the descents got me within the time limit again at the finish, with only 15 minutes to spare.
That particular 1000 had a nasty hill section between kilometers 500 and 600, followed by 200km of rivervalley downstreams. So no one bothered with the control closure just before the 600km mark.

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2019, 09:01:54 am »
With the regular control timing for a LRM 1200 my mental calculation is

first 600 a regular 600 riding straight t hrough the night
2nd night, you get an extra 5 hours bonus but during the day keep the 15km/h average
3rd night another 5 hours bonus and do the remainder with a 15km/h average

Doesn't work always but it keeps the calculations easy for a 1200 with a morning start.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
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Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2019, 09:24:56 am »
The universal assumption here is that the closing time of an intermediate control is the latest time you should arrive by.

But, arguably, it is also the time you must leave by (in the case of a staffed control).
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2019, 11:44:46 am »

But, arguably, it is also the time you must leave by (in the case of a staffed control).
Disagree

A staffed control may still be a commercial venue. The controller is at liberty to leave once the clock ticks over but riders can still rest and eat.

Or in the case of an overnight control. I would not be impressed at being kicked out at 3am with far more time than required to reach the next control.
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2019, 11:51:59 am »
And I, as a controller, would not be impressed by someone arriving on the dot and then putting their feet up.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2019, 11:59:01 am »
I find the problem is rather the opposite... being too early at the first control, which is often the case if the first few km are flat and there is a large group.

Depends on how close the first control is to the start. With the exception of a secret control in the first 5km of a Dutch 300, it's rare round these parts to get a first control in under 50km. Just how fast are you going to be early at the control?

Quote

Being late at intermediate control means being late at the arrivee, unless that's due to an accident or serious mechanical...

Not at all. It depends on the conditions and geography. If you take the November Dutch BRM Luctor et Emergo, conditions there are really windy, it's pan flat. With a Westerly wind, you could easily struggle to make it to CP1 and CP2 inside the time limit, but the same wind gives you a stonking tail wind so the return leg you fly back. Last year we had the reverse wind (tail wind out, headwind back), I averaged 25kph as far as CP2, and barely 15kph from there to the Arrivé.

This weekend's 200 we had a stonking headwind for the first 105km, I got blown down to 11kph at one point. We also had all 1000m of climbing in this bit, The final 90km was pretty damn flat (300m in 90km), A young couple really struggled to get to Cp2 in the time limit, but the wind change meant we got them to the arrive with an hour in hand, having left CP2 after it had closed.

In terrain less governed by the wind, then being out of time at an intermediate control may mean that you're gonna be out of time at the end, but it doesn't always make it the case.

With the regular control timing for a LRM 1200 my mental calculation is

first 600 a regular 600 riding straight t hrough the night
2nd night, you get an extra 5 hours bonus but during the day keep the 15km/h average
3rd night another 5 hours bonus and do the remainder with a 15km/h average

Doesn't work always but it keeps the calculations easy for a 1200 with a morning start.

From an organisers point of view, what does it work as?

The universal assumption here is that the closing time of an intermediate control is the latest time you should arrive by.

But, arguably, it is also the time you must leave by (in the case of a staffed control).

Surely it's more a case of "we're locking up here, but there's a bench outside if you want to recover a bit longer before you set of" rather than "oi, get rolling!"

Does anyone know how it works on a SR600? are the photos timestamped?


But, arguably, it is also the time you must leave by (in the case of a staffed control).
Disagree

A staffed control may still be a commercial venue. The controller is at liberty to leave once the clock ticks over but riders can still rest and eat.

Yeah, nearly all the staffed controls I've used on Dutch and Danish BRM's have been commercial venues. I've seen the controller get up and leave while I'm still eating. A couple of controls have been the organiser out the back of a car by the side of the road (one on top of the Citadel at Namur, and 2 secret controls).

Quote
Or in the case of an overnight control. I would not be impressed at being kicked out at 3am with far more time than required to reach the next control.

Agreed.

And I, as a controller, would not be impressed by someone arriving on the dot and then putting their feet up.

But would you be equally annoyed if they got their stamp, refilled their bottle, then sat under a tree outside for 15-20 mins eating a mars bar and resting their legs?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

whosatthewheel

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2019, 12:37:00 pm »
I find the problem is rather the opposite... being too early at the first control, which is often the case if the first few km are flat and there is a large group.

Depends on how close the first control is to the start. With the exception of a secret control in the first 5km of a Dutch 300, it's rare round these parts to get a first control in under 50km. Just how fast are you going to be early at the control?



BCM was 72 km... we were between 5 and 10 minutes early.
LWL was a similar distance and again around 5 minutes early

Big roads, big groups, big speed... usually not an issue on events that take smaller lanes

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2019, 01:01:20 pm »
BCM was 72 km... we were between 5 and 10 minutes early.
LWL was a similar distance and again around 5 minutes early

Big roads, big groups, big speed... usually not an issue on events that take smaller lanes

Dunnoh about the big roads.
On the Borderlands Explorer a reasonable sized group of us were flying along towards Eskdalemuir at just over the maximum speed.
A stop to put on rain jackets at the summit did for that but we still rolled into the Old School control just after they'd opened for the day which was also just after control "opening" time.

That's hardly on a big road!
Although the maximum was set at 25kmh...

Had the big roads "issue" on the Rothes Recce (which was 30kmh); fair speed through to Granton-on-Spey in a big group, but that is fairly big roads.
Manged to control at the Co-Op just after control "opening" time despite having to go back to the bike from the self-serve checkout to get my money. oh.

It's not like we're riding regularities though and if you are early, and it does matter then it's an excuse for a rest or even doing a few laps of the town square if you must...

whosatthewheel

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2019, 01:05:25 pm »
BCM was 72 km... we were between 5 and 10 minutes early.
LWL was a similar distance and again around 5 minutes early

Big roads, big groups, big speed... usually not an issue on events that take smaller lanes

Dunnoh about the big roads.
On the Borderlands Explorer a reasonable sized group of us were flying along towards Eskdalemuir at just over the maximum speed.
A stop to put on rain jackets at the summit did for that but we still rolled into the Old School control just after they'd opened for the day which was also just after control "opening" time.

That's hardly on a big road!
Although the maximum was set at 25kmh...


Setting 25 on an intermediate control for a flattish ride is evil... I would rather taper the control times to make sure that they tend towards 25 km/h... but the first one should be higher and as close as possible to 30.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2019, 01:13:36 pm »
BCM was 72 km... we were between 5 and 10 minutes early.
LWL was a similar distance and again around 5 minutes early

Big roads, big groups, big speed... usually not an issue on events that take smaller lanes

Dunnoh about the big roads.
On the Borderlands Explorer a reasonable sized group of us were flying along towards Eskdalemuir at just over the maximum speed.
A stop to put on rain jackets at the summit did for that but we still rolled into the Old School control just after they'd opened for the day which was also just after control "opening" time.

That's hardly on a big road!
Although the maximum was set at 25kmh...


Setting 25 on an intermediate control for a flattish ride is evil... I would rather taper the control times to make sure that they tend towards 25 km/h... but the first one should be higher and as close as possible to 30.

Setting a speed that would result in people arriving at a closed café that's the only available control in town would be similarly evil!
Starting later for 30kmh to work on that first control would have resulted in a finish time Monday morning, with only the vast emptiness of a 24hr ASDA for controlling in.

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2019, 02:30:17 pm »
And I, as a controller, would not be impressed by someone arriving on the dot and then putting their feet up.
I would think that anyone arriving just in time is probably in need of rest/food/drink and not just being inconsiderate.

Also if I have paid for overnight accommodation on a 1000km ride I do not expect that to close at 2am because that's the limit for arrival as printed on a brevet card.

If we are talking about a village hall on a 300 or 400km events it's quite different.

I'm not saying you should always expect to overstay the time but it's not always as black and white as you must leave at the control deadline.

I remember kings at Dolgellau packing up as I got there. I have no problem with that it was around 7am and I had already slept up the road. I knew the deadline and was away before the cut off. I think others were still eating, I didn't hold anyone up.
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2019, 11:09:48 pm »
The universal assumption here is that the closing time of an intermediate control is the latest time you should arrive by.

But, arguably, it is also the time you must leave by (in the case of a staffed control).

RUSA tends towards a strict interpretation of their rules regardless of whether a control is manned or not. They suggest that the minimum average speed is like a broom wagon constantly trundling down the road at 15 km/h. Get overtaken by the broom wagon at l'Etape du Tour and you get pulled from the event, whether you are riding or stopped for a pee. Same thing in a RUSA brevet. A secret control when you are below the minimum average during a RUSA brevet would have you timed out and at risk of your ride not being homologated, regardless of gaining the time back later in the event.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2019, 09:54:49 am »
It comes down to - why are there time limits on intermediate cotrols?  I don't think this is made clear anywhere.

The fact that most organisations including AUK have rules about intermediate control times even for unstaffed controls including on permanents, suggests to me that "this is a game, and these are the arbitrary rules you play by".  On that basis the 'strict' approach as described above is quite reasonable.

I have long campaigned for the rules to be changed so that intermediate times only apply on 'staffed' controls - then it is no longer  a game for the riders, but a matter of helping the controllers.

I believe on PBP these days they do permit riders to 'sleep over' past the closing time before continuing the ride - when I first rode the event in 1983 that was not allowed and in fact you had your card stamped and timed on leaving the control.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2019, 10:03:28 am »
The universal assumption here is that the closing time of an intermediate control is the latest time you should arrive by.

But, arguably, it is also the time you must leave by (in the case of a staffed control).

RUSA tends towards a strict interpretation of their rules regardless of whether a control is manned or not. They suggest that the minimum average speed is like a broom wagon constantly trundling down the road at 15 km/h. Get overtaken by the broom wagon at l'Etape du Tour and you get pulled from the event, whether you are riding or stopped for a pee. Same thing in a RUSA brevet. A secret control when you are below the minimum average during a RUSA would have you timed out and at risk of your ride not being homologated, regardless of gaining the time back later in the event.

That's a lot more strict than the ACP guidelines. On their website, you can find a spreadsheet to calculate closing times of controls (http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/download/plages_horaires_brm_10_EN.xls). You will notice that the closing times for intermediate controls tend to be at average speeds lower than 15 km/h (but converging to 15 km/h as the intermediate controls get closer to the finish).

As an occasional organizer (in the Netherlands), I don't check intermediate control times. But I can't guarantee that the controls will be open if you arrive outside the specified time window.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2019, 10:16:16 am »
It isn't too surprising that Anglophones might be stricter in rule interpretation than the French. The French tend to interpret the spirit of rules while Anglos tend to go for the letter of the law.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2019, 10:27:11 am »
<the 30kph is too slow "issue" :>

...

It's not like we're riding regularities though and if you are early, and it does matter then it's an excuse for a rest or even doing a few laps of the town square if you must...
... or indeed have another cuppa+biscuit before the start.

This really isn't a real problem. There are a  few who can/will average30kph moving over a typical 200km+ brevet. Take it to 600+ (or include real hills) and those few become even fewer. Most of those humble bragging about these "tricky control limitations" are going to flag well below their awesome starting burst in the 2nd half of an event. leaving aside rides with flat starts, this is just more evidence of the horrendous pacing skills of most amateur riders, not something to brag about IMHO .

Can we look at dealing with some real audax problems now? I nominate dark clothing ;)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2019, 10:39:37 am »
It isn't too surprising that Anglophones might be stricter in rule interpretation than the French. The French tend to interpret the spirit of rules while Anglos tend to go for the letter of the law.

No, their *rules* are different. AUK has a uniform 15 km/h minimum speed, ACP has a 1 hour + 20 km/h for the first 60 km, and that's exactly what the spreadsheet calculates*.

This is a product of the start control "closing" 1 hour after the official start time, which is something AUK hasn't adopted (how does this work in practice?)

(* it also covers closing times tapering off after 600 km - in this way it's actually *stricter* than AUK rules, which set a lower minimum speed for all controls on longer rides)

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2019, 10:50:50 am »
No, their *rules* are different. AUK has a uniform 15 km/h minimum speed

Except where it's 14.81kph (for some BRMs[1]) or 14.3kph (for BRs).

1. BRM 200s are defined as having 13h30, 200/13.5 = 14.81kph (2dp). Same for 400s.

Also doesn't take into account over-distance rides and how control times need to be adjusted to take this into account.

i.e. consider a 570km control on a BRM 600 that is over distance by 15km. Do you get to the 570km control having ridden 15kph average and think you have 2 hours to complete the last 45km, or do you want a bit longer than that?

And I, as a controller, would not be impressed by someone arriving on the dot and then putting their feet up.

How does this "not impressed" get marked on the Brevet card?
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2019, 11:02:43 am »
And I, as a controller, would not be impressed by someone arriving on the dot and then putting their feet up.

How does this "not impressed" get marked on the Brevet card?
And will it get logged on the V2 website (alongside DNS, DNF etc data) ??
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2019, 11:04:14 am »
Regardless of the actual minimum average speed in any particular brevet, the enforcement expectations are different. In the UK and many other countries, leaving controls after they have closed is considered acceptable but not so much in RUSA brevets.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2019, 11:24:38 am »
Does RUSA organise a lot of hilly brevets? In my experience, control closing times are only an issue on events with stupid amounts of climbing - Kernow & SW, TINAT, Pendle (for which I left *every control* out of time) - the French pretty much came up with a whole new set of (Super Randonnée) rules for these.
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

whosatthewheel

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2019, 12:14:33 pm »


How does this "not impressed" get marked on the Brevet card?

You could have stamps that leave an impression on the brevet card, and others that do not leave it...  ;D

Re: Intermediate control timing per country
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2019, 01:49:46 pm »
All I can say is Sydney Melbourne Alpine. Front end loaded with ‘free’ headwind for 600km while you climbed from sea level to 1400m. 50% of the field either abandoned (due to control cut off times) or DQ’d due to not making control cut off times. One HD.

Therefore always be the right side of intermediate control times unless you know for sure the organisation is going to take a kindly attitude.

On the other hand the French know how to lay out 1000km plus brevet prrfectly other than a few know exceptions.