Author Topic: Spokes  (Read 4005 times)

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Spokes
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2019, 11:00:13 am »
/whitehatthinking
Would a dishless rear wheel be a better all-round package??

A disc brake goes some way to equalising the rear dish (or does it just give you a wheel that is dished on both sides??) though of course at the front it adds dish.
What I can say for sure is if you break a spoke on a disc braked (rear) wheel you might carry on for days without even noticing DAHIKT.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Spokes
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2019, 11:20:32 am »
A disc brake goes some way to equalising the rear dish (or does it just give you a wheel that is dished on both sides??) though of course at the front it adds dish.

Although if you have a dynamo then it might not make any difference at all, since the hub is already narrow to accommodate the plug. 

The Shutter Precision SP-PD8 uses different length spokes left and right, to make it possible to lace around the disc spider, but the offset is the same and the minor PCD discrepancy won't affect the dish, nor the tension by any appreciable amount.  The SP-PL8, which takes a splined rotor, is identical on both flanges and with symmetrical offsets.  The SP-PV8 (rim brake hub) is symmetrical, albeit quite narrow flange-to-flange, but I've never had any issue with it due to that in five years' riding.

That said, who needs a disc brake on a road bike?  Callipers are surely Good Enough ... I'll get my coat  :demon:
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Spokes
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2019, 05:37:29 pm »
Anyone who expects (rightly or wrongly) to suffer a broken spoke - because a broken spoke on a disc wheel is no biggie.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Spokes
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2019, 05:38:58 pm »
Anyone who expects (rightly or wrongly) to suffer a broken spoke - because a broken spoke on a disc wheel is no biggie.

Haha — fair comment, I'd never looked at it that way  :thumbsup:
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Spokes
« Reply #79 on: February 25, 2019, 05:42:31 pm »
Anyone who expects (rightly or wrongly) to suffer a broken spoke - because a broken spoke on a disc wheel is no biggie.

Haha — fair comment, I'd never looked at it that way  :thumbsup:

My front wheel has been ever so slightly out of true for a few thousand km due to hitting a pothole somewhere on the road to Hell. It's not a major issue, If I put enough crap on the front of the bike I can't even see it. Because it's disc brakes I can just ignore it until I'm ready to get my wheel builder to fix it (probably just before RatN). No doubt it's suboptimal to ride with a wobble like this, for so long, but it seems to cope.

J

(The other advantage I love with discs is being able to have varied wheel sets, swapping between wide, thin, 650b, 700c, even 26", all without issue. But we digress)
--
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JonB

  • Granny Ring ... Yes Please!
Re: Spokes
« Reply #80 on: February 25, 2019, 06:52:22 pm »
Although if you have a dynamo then it might not make any difference at all, since the hub is already narrow to accommodate the plug. 

Ahhh, that makes sense, I'd always wondered why there are so narrow ... obvious really  :facepalm:

Re: Spokes
« Reply #81 on: February 25, 2019, 07:26:06 pm »
The SP 8-series dynamo hubs are *much* narrower than they need to be to accommodate the plug or the disc rotor. AFAICT it's because they use the same body and flange distance as the Brompton version, which has to fit a 74mm fork (vs 100mm for most other bikes).

It's nice to know there are people out there on gnarly adventures on their rock hard gravel bikes that have front wheels built to 16" folding bike specifications.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Spokes
« Reply #82 on: February 26, 2019, 10:26:25 am »
My front wheel has been ever so slightly out of true for a few thousand km due to hitting a pothole somewhere on the road to Hell. It's not a major issue, If I put enough crap on the front of the bike I can't even see it. Because it's disc brakes I can just ignore it until I'm ready to get my wheel builder to fix it (probably just before RatN). No doubt it's suboptimal to ride with a wobble like this, for so long, but it seems to cope.

Hmm, nothing a Spokey and five minutes wouldn't fix — even on the side of the road.

Quote
(The other advantage I love with discs is being able to have varied wheel sets, swapping between wide, thin, 650b, 700c, even 26", all without issue. But we digress)

650b's on a ROAD bike?  Really?!!  Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.

I'm really still not convinced, J.
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Spokes
« Reply #83 on: February 26, 2019, 10:29:20 am »
The SP 8-series dynamo hubs are *much* narrower than they need to be to accommodate the plug or the disc rotor. AFAICT it's because they use the same body and flange distance as the Brompton version, which has to fit a 74mm fork (vs 100mm for most other bikes).

It's nice to know there are people out there on gnarly adventures on their rock hard gravel bikes that have front wheels built to 16" folding bike specifications.

I didn't know you could get them in a 74mm package?  I've never seen them listed as such. 

I thought it might just be to keep the mass of the shell down, since the magnets and coil don't take up that much width?  One of their USPs is that they're the lightest hub-dynamo on the market.
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

Re: Spokes
« Reply #84 on: February 26, 2019, 12:19:45 pm »
With a Son 28 Disc hub with Open Pro rim the spokes are the same length either side.   My rear wheel is an XT Disc Hub with Open Pro rim and one side has same length spokes as front with the other side different. I lace them 3X (32 hole rims). There was certainly less dish to deal with on the rear compared to my old rim braked setup for the previous frame.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Spokes
« Reply #85 on: February 26, 2019, 12:20:07 pm »
Hmm, nothing a Spokey and five minutes wouldn't fix — even on the side of the road.

Yes, if you have the talent to do it. I don't have the skills needed to true wheels yet. It's on my todo list.

Quote
Quote
(The other advantage I love with discs is being able to have varied wheel sets, swapping between wide, thin, 650b, 700c, even 26", all without issue. But we digress)

650b's on a ROAD bike?  Really?!!  Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.

I'm really still not convinced, J.

Oh yes. You see when a frame gets a bit smaller, when you start adding size XS and XXS below S, so normal sized people can buy a bike, you start to find that the 622mm wheel format makes for compromises to the geometry. At this point moving to 584mm wheels can improve the performance of the bike, esp for riders who are below average height. Remember in the UK, average height for a woman is 1.63m. This means 50% of the population are shorter than that. I am 1.68m (not 1.7m as previously thought :( ), and for me on a Genesis Croix de fir I need a size XS frame, the smallest they make. If you look at some of the canyon womens specific frames, they swap to 584mm wheels at the XS and XXS sizes.

So, say I had a gf who's shorter than me and rides a 584mm wheeled bike, in a pinch, I could borrow one of her wheels on my bike.

That said, my current steed is a franken bike with clearance at the front for 75mm of tyre, and at the back for about 65mm. Meaning if I wanted to I could go for 584mm wheels with honky big lumps of rubber for a very supple ride, or extra float on weird surfaces (like pavé), or just for the hell of it. Obviously as I put bigger rubber on, I'll need to keep my wheels closer to true. I doubt many would call my bike a road bike. The new bike is spec'd for clearance upto 622x42mm, which is slightly more road like, tho I'm sure many would call it a gravel bike. I prefer the term "comfortable bike", my bikes are all built for long distance racing (except for the Brompton, that's built for... um... the shops?)

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Spokes
« Reply #86 on: February 26, 2019, 12:32:09 pm »

650b's on a ROAD bike?  Really?!!  Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.

I'm really still not convinced, J.

Says the man who has ridden 16" wheels on LEL and PBP and now mostly rides fixed.   Smaller wheels make sense for the smaller frames, and for the larger frames you can run smaller rims but larger tyres so the overall difference in circumference measured round the outside of the tyre is not so great.   

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Spokes
« Reply #87 on: February 26, 2019, 01:12:45 pm »
Hmm, nothing a Spokey and five minutes wouldn't fix — even on the side of the road.

Yes, if you have the talent to do it. I don't have the skills needed to true wheels yet. It's on my todo list.

If the wheel's already wonky it's a good time to learn, as you haven't really got anything to lose:  Turn the bike upside-down.
 In the absence of rim brakes, stick a brightly-coloured (so you can see the reflection in the rim, visually[1] doubling the error) cable tie round the fork as a reference pointer, find the worst gap, twiddle the nearest nipple a bit in the appropriate direction[2].  Spin the wheel, repeat.

Then take it to the wheelbuilder to sort it out properly if you're still not confident.  At least you'll have a feel for what you have to do to sort out a kink at the roadside.

Sorting out a couple of dodgy spokes on an otherwise-good wheel is much easier than getting the tension right when building up from scratch.


[1] Depending on ambient noise and lighting, sometimes it's easier to listen for your pointer rubbing on the rim.  YMMV.
[2] Visualise the nipple screwing onto the end of the spoke from the outside of the rim.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Spokes
« Reply #88 on: February 26, 2019, 01:58:42 pm »
Oh yes. You see when a frame gets a bit smaller, when you start adding size XS and XXS below S, so normal sized people can buy a bike, you start to find that the 622mm wheel format makes for compromises to the geometry. At this point moving to 584mm wheels can improve the performance of the bike, esp for riders who are below average height. Remember in the UK, average height for a woman is 1.63m. This means 50% of the population are shorter than that. I am 1.68m (not 1.7m as previously thought :( ), and for me on a Genesis Croix de fir I need a size XS frame, the smallest they make. If you look at some of the canyon womens specific frames, they swap to 584mm wheels at the XS and XXS sizes.

So, say I had a gf who's shorter than me and rides a 584mm wheeled bike, in a pinch, I could borrow one of her wheels on my bike.

That said, my current steed is a franken bike with clearance at the front for 75mm of tyre, and at the back for about 65mm. Meaning if I wanted to I could go for 584mm wheels with honky big lumps of rubber for a very supple ride, or extra float on weird surfaces (like pavé), or just for the hell of it. Obviously as I put bigger rubber on, I'll need to keep my wheels closer to true. I doubt many would call my bike a road bike. The new bike is spec'd for clearance upto 622x42mm, which is slightly more road like, tho I'm sure many would call it a gravel bike. I prefer the term "comfortable bike", my bikes are all built for long distance racing (except for the Brompton, that's built for... um... the shops?)

J

My apologies, I now recall you have mentioned this in previous posts around this place — my mistake seeing the world as tall as me (183)  :-[

You are correct, and I absolutely agree with you that smaller sized bikes would get better geometries with smaller wheels.  Personally I think it's short-sighted of the industry to fixate on 700c for everyone when it clearly doesn't suit frames below S; the same with 50/34 compact when surely most riders in the UK would find 46/30 more useful/useable, although 50/34 on smaller wheels would probably work out quite nice.  My wife and sister-in-law are both XS and their bikes look out of proportion, with near-horizontal seat stays, or so it always seems to me  ::-)

That said, still no excuse for discs onna road bike ... :demon:
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Spokes
« Reply #89 on: February 26, 2019, 02:00:33 pm »
Says the man who has ridden 16" wheels on LEL and PBP and now mostly rides fixed.   Smaller wheels make sense for the smaller frames, and for the larger frames you can run smaller rims but larger tyres so the overall difference in circumference measured round the outside of the tyre is not so great.

I'll take my contrariness and stick to my point anyway: calli's on road bikes; discs for off-road  :demon:
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

Re: Spokes
« Reply #90 on: February 26, 2019, 04:09:24 pm »
I didn't know you could get them in a 74mm package?  I've never seen them listed as such.
 

Have a look at the thumbnails here and compare the SV-8 to the SV-8-F. The 100mm version is pretty much just the 74mm version with some spacers:

http://www.sp-dynamo.com/8seriesdynamo%20hub.html

Quote
I thought it might just be to keep the mass of the shell down, since the magnets and coil don't take up that much width?  One of their USPs is that they're the lightest hub-dynamo on the market.

Well that's certainly the appeal of that series on bigger bikes. But I like to think they miniaturised it in the first place to have something that fits the Brompton forks.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Spokes
« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2019, 04:42:26 pm »
I didn't know you could get them in a 74mm package?  I've never seen them listed as such.
 

Have a look at the thumbnails here and compare the SV-8 to the SV-8-F. The 100mm version is pretty much just the 74mm version with some spacers:

http://www.sp-dynamo.com/8seriesdynamo%20hub.html

Quote
I thought it might just be to keep the mass of the shell down, since the magnets and coil don't take up that much width?  One of their USPs is that they're the lightest hub-dynamo on the market.

Well that's certainly the appeal of that series on bigger bikes. But I like to think they miniaturised it in the first place to have something that fits the Brompton forks.

Iiiiiiiinteresting — https://www.condorcycles.com/products/brompton-front-wheel-shutter-precision-sv-8-hub-dynamo — "The brand new dynamo front wheel from Brompton, featuring Shutter Precision's SV-8 hub. Offering improved reliability, efficiency, and a 271g weight saving over Shimano, with comparable efficiency to SON at less than half the cost and a 91g weight saving.:thumbsup:

Thanks, Graham  :thumbsup:
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

Re: Spokes
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2019, 05:05:01 pm »
Iiiiiiiinteresting — https://www.condorcycles.com/products/brompton-front-wheel-shutter-precision-sv-8-hub-dynamo — "The brand new dynamo front wheel from Brompton, featuring Shutter Precision's SV-8 hub. Offering improved reliability, efficiency, and a 271g weight saving over Shimano, with comparable efficiency to SON at less than half the cost and a 91g weight saving.:thumbsup:

It's been available since at least 2012!
https://web.archive.org/web/20120729204132/http://www.sp-dynamo.com/8seriesdynamo%20hub.html

It's only in the last year or so Brompton started using them on factory bikes though.

Re: Spokes
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2019, 05:28:15 pm »
650b's on a ROAD bike?  Really?!!  Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.

I'm really still not convinced, J.

There were of course many French randonneuring bikes with 650B wheels in the olden days (I bought one such from the 1950s, which is A Project for a later PBP maybe), and the style has enjoyed a renaissance in NW America. Whether these old bikes used 650B because they were great highly suitable, or just because that's what was around, I'm not sure!

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Spokes
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2019, 05:53:10 pm »
650b's on a ROAD bike?  Really?!!  Edit: as opposed to a gravel bike, obvs.

I'm really still not convinced, J.

There were of course many French randonneuring bikes with 650B wheels in the olden days (I bought one such from the 1950s, which is A Project for a later PBP maybe), and the style has enjoyed a renaissance in NW America. Whether these old bikes used 650B because they were great highly suitable, or just because that's what was around, I'm not sure!

That sounds like a Good Thing To Do — ride a 50s French classic during a 19th century French classic  :thumbsup:

However, I guess my point was not so much the 650b selection, but the idea that you would ever swap wheels on a road bike.  And if you never swap wheels then the point about disc brakes being good such that it enables you to swap wheels is once again irrelevant   :demon:
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

Re: Spokes
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2019, 06:03:01 pm »
French roads were notably bad well into the 1970s. There was a huge backlog from WW2, and this sign was very common.



Our own roads in the UK are pretty poor at present, so I'm not surprised that there's a focus on bigger tyres and spare spokes.

Riding in pace lines, and at night, are the two extra hazards on PBP. Lighting has got better, which can help in spotting potholes, but that can cause problems when well-lit bikes are coming the other way, or a more powerfully-lit bike is behind you.

Re: Spokes
« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2019, 06:13:43 pm »
However, I guess my point was not so much the 650b selection, but the idea that you would ever swap wheels on a road bike. 

Well, I've put 700c wheels on the 1980s Dawes Galaxy which was meant to take 27" ones - works great: loads of room for big tyres and mudguards. Needs ultra-deep-drop brakes though (not discs).

Some of the recent Mason and Kinesis (and probably other brand) bikes are actually designed to be either 700c or 650B I believe. In my idle n+1 daydream moments I think a Mason Bokeh 650B could be built up to be a nice reinterpretation of a "classic" 650B randonneur.

Re: Spokes
« Reply #97 on: February 27, 2019, 07:29:26 pm »
Yes, if you have the talent to do it. I don't have the skills needed to true wheels yet. It's on my todo list.

Kim's given you a mature, sensible answer, but spend €5 on a decent spoke key - almost certainly a red Spokey will be your best choice - and follow up with either a quality 15 mins with youtube, or 5 minutes buying beer for someone who knows what they are doing.

You will have the relevant skills and can cross it off your todo list. (Buying Jobst's book to get his take on the theory is an optional, but recommended, further step.)

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: Spokes
« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2019, 07:58:35 pm »
(Buying Jobst's book to get his take on the theory is an optional, but recommended, further step.)

Or Roger Musson's — both recommended reads, full of experience-based insight  :thumbsup:
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.