Author Topic: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad  (Read 2465 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« on: March 04, 2019, 12:31:00 pm »

The mens OHN race set off with a 10 minute headstart on the womens race, but the women were so fast, they caught up with the mens race, the womens race had to be stopped. The one woman break away - Nicole Hanselmann - was given a headstart, but was soon reeled in, ending up 74th.

It's not the first time something like this has happened, there was a race in Ireland where the women set off first, then had to stop to let the mens race go past, before continuing.

It's an interesting situation. When the men catch up with the women, the women are asked to get out the way for the men. When the women catch up the men, the women have to stop and let the men get away, messing up the race for the women.

There has to be a better solution to this. Would a half hour gap be enough? An hour? Should the faster race always have right of way?

How can we prevent this?

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2019, 03:19:59 pm »
I realize I know nothing about the organisation of races but why does one race have to get out of the way of the other? It should be easy enough to tell which race a particular rider is in, for instance using different coloured numbers. In fact, I'm sure it's standard at lower levels to different categories racing together. So is it just because of the number of riders on the road at one time and place? Or would it actually cause problems (what and who for?) if the order or riders crossing the finishing line went eg 1st man, 2nd man, 1st woman, 3rd man, 2nd woman, 4th man, 3rd woman, etc?
"Pick a flower on Earth and you move the farthest star." Dirac.

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2019, 03:46:08 pm »
I think it was the trailing caravan of cars the lead lady rider caught, not a rider in the men's race, but still, it shouldn't have happened. The easiest is to leave more than 10 minutes between the starts. And it's simply daft letting a women's race off in front of a men's race on the same course, given the known differences in speed.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2019, 03:52:35 pm »
Nice idea, but these are two different races - they're supposed to be separate, and as you suggest, the sheer size of a combined field would be trouble. (probably blows their risk Ass't and/or road closure permissions thingummys as well)

And no, I don't have a constructive answer  ;D
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2019, 05:00:53 pm »

It's an interesting situation. When the men catch up with the women, the women are asked to get out the way for the men. When the women catch up the men, the women have to stop and let the men get away, messing up the race for the women.


I would suggest this is TV related. Men's races are televised, sadly, most women's races aren't and TV producers wouldn't want 'their' race interfered with.

The only real solution is to run them on separate days or one in the morning and one in the afternoon. This happens on the bigger races but I'd suggest the organisation and road closure costs are more prohibitive on a race which isn't a monument.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2019, 05:55:23 pm »
I think that it’s all much more mundane than is being suggested.

The men’s race is much longer, so the peloton tends to amble off. It was a bit iffy weather wise so my experience of being in a team car at such races would suggest that there was a sort of truce for a while to allow riders to warm up, go back to the cars with overshoes, gilets etc.

The women’s race had an unforeseen mega- fast start, one rider ( who won’t be popular in the ranks) went off at full gas. Hence she came within scope of the men’s race convoy ( typically a few km long)

The protocol for the race jury is clear, if there is risk of an obstruction ( train, protest etc) the times are taken and the race re-started with the original time gaps. Nothing to do with if it’s a men’s or a women’s race.

Actually, this tends to obscure the fact that most big races now have a women’s race with the same start and finish as the men’s. That’s a huge move forward from the women being on another day or having a criterium. The profile of women’s racing is the highest it’s ever been, especially in Belgium. There was another big women’s race in Belgium at the weekend ( Hageland) also televised ( and no men’s race there)

Samyn on Tuesday televised as well ( a women’s race included)


Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 06:04:37 pm »
^exactly what I was thinking. Men's race is 200k, women's is 122k. The men aren't going to go from the gun.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 06:27:28 pm »
^exactly what I was thinking. Men's race is 200k, women's is 122k. The men aren't going to go from the gun.

Why does the mens race have to be longer than the womens race? It's 2019...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 10:18:48 pm »
Dunno. Are women's tennis games still shorter?

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2019, 11:34:24 am »
^exactly what I was thinking. Men's race is 200k, women's is 122k. The men aren't going to go from the gun.

Why does the mens race have to be longer than the womens race? It's 2019...

J
Because the UCI are a bunch of misogynous dinosaurs, as you know...

I agree with Giropaul. One other thought I had was that given that the women's race is shorter than the men's race they must have left the route that the men were taking at some point - possibly the race organisers thought that even if the women went off faster (for the reasons given by Giropaul) the men would be on the separate route before there was any chance of the women catching them?

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 08:44:33 am »
What did all the others in the women's race think about it?  If the one who made the break caught the men's race she could draft, giving her a potentially very big advantage which would have been unfair to all the others.

At Hillingdon we have mens and womens races (and different levels) riding at once.  When the men's peloton passes the women's one (or other overtake) you need to keep alert as there often seems to be a crash at that point. 

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2019, 09:07:34 am »
The race organisers publish a timetable of when they expect the riders to reach various points along the route assuming they travel at 3 different average speeds (39,41 and 43km/h for the men) and 34, 36, 38km/h for the women.

The women's is here

and the men's is here

The men's slowest speed estimated is 39km/h and the womens fastest is 38km/h.

The organisers explain their thinking here in an post race statement.


Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2019, 09:17:30 am »
So assuming the men travelled at 39km/h, for the catch to be made at 30km, the lead woman must have been averaging 47...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2019, 09:33:07 am »
So assuming the men travelled at 39km/h, for the catch to be made at 30km, the lead woman must have been averaging 47...
But that assumption would be wrong - read the report you linked to! :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2019, 09:37:52 am »
So assuming the men travelled at 39km/h, for the catch to be made at 30km, the lead woman must have been averaging 47...
The organisers' statement says the men were doing less than 30km/h, so it's all their fault, the lazy so-and-sos  ;)

I like the fact that they do this: (quoted from the link)
"As we do since 2018, we presented all men’s and women’s teams jointly in the iconic ‘t Kuipke during an amazing show. Right after, we lined up the men’s and women’s race alongside each other at the Emile Clauslaan for their respective starts. The Elite Men took off just eight minutes before the Elite Women in order to keep the numerous fans and the nice atmosphere at the start site for the women’s start as well."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2019, 09:38:39 am »
I'm wondering why her director didn't use the team radio to warn her, 'Take it easy now Nicole, you've got a huge lead and you're going to get tangled up in the men's race if you carry on like this.' Come to that, she would have seen it herself. Maybe they were going so slowly (the report does say under 30km/h at times) she was bound to be reeled in if she did that.

So in the long term it has implications for tactics in women's races (or any race which starts shortly after another on the same course): breakaways right from the start are useless.
"Pick a flower on Earth and you move the farthest star." Dirac.

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2019, 12:32:36 pm »
Breakaways right from the start are always useless! :)

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2019, 12:40:03 pm »
I'm wondering why her director didn't use the team radio to warn her, 'Take it easy now Nicole, you've got a huge lead and you're going to get tangled up in the men's race if you carry on like this.' Come to that, she would have seen it herself. Maybe they were going so slowly (the report does say under 30km/h at times) she was bound to be reeled in if she did that.

So in the long term it has implications for tactics in women's races (or any race which starts shortly after another on the same course): breakaways right from the start are useless.

Maybe the men thought it was an Audax and didn't want to exceed the 30km/h limit?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2019, 12:54:26 pm »
I hope they stopped for beans on toast half way round!
"Pick a flower on Earth and you move the farthest star." Dirac.


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2019, 03:04:17 pm »
I think they've given away their intentions there with that little word "fiasco" ...

Meanwhile, I need some Flemish translation help. What does the 2nd word here mean:
"Vlaamse openingsweekend"
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2019, 03:36:49 pm »
I think they've given away their intentions there with that little word "fiasco" ...

Meanwhile, I need some Flemish translation help. What does the 2nd word here mean:
"Vlaamse openingsweekend"

Opening weekend of the Flemish Cycling season

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2019, 03:42:08 pm »
really???
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2019, 01:45:57 am »
Yes, really.
</straight bat>

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Omloop Het Nieuwsblad
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2019, 12:31:10 pm »
Breakaways right from the start are always useless! :)

Plucky J Durand:Bof!  You Eengleesh!
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime