Author Topic: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x  (Read 2230 times)

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« on: May 07, 2019, 06:57:49 pm »
Might be a great pick for Audax and touring IMO

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-grx/

New gravel/cross wheels too!
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 07:54:54 pm »
Looks interesting - I like the idea of the 48/31 crankset!

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 09:31:27 pm »
Great to have some more options for 1x gears. Though seems it is only 1x11, 2x11 or 2x10. Why not 1x10?

The hydraulic crosstop levers look neat.

Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2019, 09:50:05 pm »
I'm interested to know whether the weird rule against mixing road and MTB Di2 derailleurs still stands, and which side these fit into.

48/31 is definitely an interesting chainring combo. I wonder what size cassette it will work with.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2019, 09:58:04 pm »
the dreaded "H" word though, I'm not convinced yet over distance. carrying a spare break cable is easy enough, but roadside hydraulic fettling?
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2019, 10:23:04 pm »
It's a hard one with the 'hydraulics only' thing. I wouldn't ride around the world to the middle of nowhere on hydros but I'd be confident doing brevets on them especially with a bit of practice doing bleeds on them. And frankly in the developed world you'll never be that far from somewhere that can source you the necessaries. Mountain bikers have been using the technology in all kinds of places for years and they reckon the trade off is worth it.

Presumably there's no reason why you couldn't just use regular tiagra/105 mechanical shifters assuming the cable pull ratios are the same?
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2019, 10:24:42 pm »
the dreaded "H" word though, I'm not convinced yet over distance. carrying a spare break cable is easy enough, but roadside hydraulic fettling?
I had same concerns and originally opted for by/rd after 18,000 km no issues with that approach... However, 19,000 in on full hydraulic and no issues on that either. Mostly all Audax as well Inc LEL
Regards,

Joergen

Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 12:39:03 am »
And frankly in the developed world you'll never be that far from somewhere that can source you the necessaries. Mountain bikers have been using the technology in all kinds of places for years and they reckon the trade off is worth it.

Shimano road hydraulic callipers and hoses are largely interchangeable with the MTB kit, and those have been commonplace for at least a decade, so most LBSes should be able to help you should the worst happen.

Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 12:17:56 pm »
Pity there isn't an option with just the brakes on the levers and barends for the shifters. The wheels in 650B are interesting for me but I'm not sure that the 32mm Hutchinson Confrérie tyre will go on those rims, I think I calculated that 21mm was the extreme, using the CTC formula. Time to invest in a set of Gravelkings (and perhaps tubeless  :facepalm: )
Having used 40/30, 42/30, 44/30 and 46/30 I can't see 48/31 working for me, the failure to feel right on 46/30 made me convert back to a triple (46/34/28). Too much crosschaining (but I suppose the logic is the 48 with most of the cassette for the road and the 31 offroad; since I don't go offroad with any bike these days I am probably not part of the target clientele.
On the whole Shimano have probably got their sums right; salesmen start working on your spiel to sell those new 2020 gravel bikes!

(and those croostop levers are cool!)

Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 12:56:54 pm »
This is great news and exactly what I want, been waiting for this for years. I’m currently running a Sugino 46/30 with an Ultegra 11-34 on eTap (shouldn't work, but does), but old knees and big hills would benefit from a lower bottom gear and this will do it perfectly, without compromising the closer ratios for normal riding.

The 46/30 running an 11-40 (bottom 20”) will come very close to my old XT 22/32/44 touring set up (bottom 18”), so I can see this appealing to tourers as well. As for hydraulics and discs, having run them for a couple of years without any issues, I love them and wouldn’t go back, but then I'm unlikely to be touring far from civilisation (and it wouldn't concern me if I was).

I don't think I'd bother with the wheels, more than happy with my Hunt wheels, although the freewheel is too noisy and Shimano freewheels are always so quiet ...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 02:51:58 pm »
the dreaded "H" word though, I'm not convinced yet over distance. carrying a spare break cable is easy enough, but roadside hydraulic fettling?

Depends what your failure expectations are.
If it's ripping a hose out then you've probably crashed heavily, I've not known anyone to do it while MTBing.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 03:00:31 pm »
the dreaded "H" word though, I'm not convinced yet over distance. carrying a spare break cable is easy enough, but roadside hydraulic fettling?

Depends what your failure expectations are.
If it's ripping a hose out then you've probably crashed heavily, I've not known anyone to do it while MTBing.

Transporting the bike seems the most likely way to do it.  So it might ruin your day, but probably not at the roadside.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2019, 03:18:27 pm »
the dreaded "H" word though, I'm not convinced yet over distance. carrying a spare break cable is easy enough, but roadside hydraulic fettling?

Depends what your failure expectations are.
If it's ripping a hose out then you've probably crashed heavily, I've not known anyone to do it while MTBing.

Transporting the bike seems the most likely way to do it.  So it might ruin your day, but probably not at the roadside.

hm, the fittings at both ends are reasonably beefy though I suppose if you pulled on the hose hard enough for the olive to slip despite the bolts being designed to crimp them onto the hose then it could happen, more likely to slice it on something in transport than zork it out.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2019, 03:23:27 pm »
I've been told of someone crashing on TINAT (Mid-Wales audax using rocky bridleways) and smashing their master cylinder but being lightly enough injured to carry on riding (which they apparently did, cautiously, with one brake).
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2019, 03:30:51 pm »
I've been told of someone crashing on TINAT (Mid-Wales audax using rocky bridleways) and smashing their master cylinder but being lightly enough injured to carry on riding (which they apparently did, cautiously, with one brake).

Which is exactly the sort of thing that might happen with mechanical brakes, too (okay, not the master cylinder, but I've bashed the crap out of MTB lever to the point the barrel adjuster wouldn't hold the cable any more, and I remember someone losing the pivot of their crosstop lever on a ride once[1]).  Main difference with mechanicals being that you can likely cannibalise your less-important brake[2] at the [off-]roadside to restore the main one and get you back to civilisation.

Which I'd classify as worthwhile for loaded touring, but probably not much else.  Hydraulics have a high just-works factor, and most failure modes seem to be slow things like knackered seals, corrosion or fluid contamination - workshop problems, not roadside ones.


[1] Easily repaired with the spare M5 bolt and nylock nut they weren't carrying.
[2] Which that is will depend on bike geometry and what you're riding on.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

tiermat

  • According to Jane, I'm a Unisex SpaceAdmin
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2019, 03:37:54 pm »
I'm interested to know whether the weird rule against mixing road and MTB Di2 derailleurs still stands, and which side these fit into.

48/31 is definitely an interesting chainring combo. I wonder what size cassette it will work with.

In answer to the first question, Road, according to the article I have read.

On the second, upto 40 cassette, with the long cage option.

I do wonder if this is the start of convergence, so you no longer have a hierarchy of groupsets for mtb and another one for road, but one hierarchy to rule them all?
I feel like Captain Kirk, on a brand new planet every day, a little like King Kong on top of the Empire State

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2019, 04:00:03 pm »
I do wonder if this is the start of convergence, so you no longer have a hierarchy of groupsets for mtb and another one for road, but one hierarchy to rule them all?

That sounds like a good thing, so no doubt if it does happen they'll find a way to make it annoying.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2019, 04:13:30 pm »
I'd like to let my reckless optimism out to play and say that Shimano have learnt from the growth of Sram that compatibility between different gearing bits leads to increased sales. However...
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2019, 04:18:50 pm »
I've been told of someone crashing on TINAT (Mid-Wales audax using rocky bridleways) and smashing their master cylinder but being lightly enough injured to carry on riding (which they apparently did, cautiously, with one brake).

Which is exactly the sort of thing that might happen with mechanical brakes, too (okay, not the master cylinder, but I've bashed the crap out of MTB lever to the point the barrel adjuster wouldn't hold the cable any more, and I remember someone losing the pivot of their crosstop lever on a ride once[1]).  Main difference with mechanicals being that you can likely cannibalise your less-important brake[2] at the [off-]roadside to restore the main one and get you back to civilisation.

Which I'd classify as worthwhile for loaded touring, but probably not much else.  Hydraulics have a high just-works factor, and most failure modes seem to be slow things like knackered seals, corrosion or fluid contamination - workshop problems, not roadside ones.


[1] Easily repaired with the spare M5 bolt and nylock nut they weren't carrying.
[2] Which that is will depend on bike geometry and what you're riding on.

Yeah, I dare say it could happen with mechanical systems as well. I think the point was maybe that with hydraulics it can happen in one big bash, whereas with mechanicals it's more likely to be the result of a series of bashes. Trailside fettlability definitely favours mechanicals but in either case it's going to be sufficiently rare that for most people in most circumstances it probably won't count. Those trekking across the Karakorum might have other priorities.

What argues in favour of mechanical discs for me is that the levers are the same as non-disc levers, therefore compatible with eg triple chainsets. That's getting away from this particular new groupo though.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2019, 04:19:32 pm »
I'd like to let my reckless optimism out to play and say that Shimano have learnt from the growth of Sram that compatibility between different gearing bits leads to increased sales. However...

Thought SRAM just disposed of gearing bits...

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2019, 07:16:32 pm »
I've been told of someone crashing on TINAT (Mid-Wales audax using rocky bridleways) and smashing their master cylinder but being lightly enough injured to carry on riding (which they apparently did, cautiously, with one brake).

Which is exactly the sort of thing that might happen with mechanical brakes, too (okay, not the master cylinder, but I've bashed the crap out of MTB lever to the point the barrel adjuster wouldn't hold the cable any more, and I remember someone losing the pivot of their crosstop lever on a ride once[1]).  Main difference with mechanicals being that you can likely cannibalise your less-important brake[2] at the [off-]roadside to restore the main one and get you back to civilisation.

Which I'd classify as worthwhile for loaded touring, but probably not much else.  Hydraulics have a high just-works factor, and most failure modes seem to be slow things like knackered seals, corrosion or fluid contamination - workshop problems, not roadside ones.


[1] Easily repaired with the spare M5 bolt and nylock nut they weren't carrying.
[2] Which that is will depend on bike geometry and what you're riding on.

Yeah, I dare say it could happen with mechanical systems as well. I think the point was maybe that with hydraulics it can happen in one big bash, whereas with mechanicals it's more likely to be the result of a series of bashes. Trailside fettlability definitely favours mechanicals but in either case it's going to be sufficiently rare that for most people in most circumstances it probably won't count. Those trekking across the Karakorum might have other priorities.

What argues in favour of mechanical discs for me is that the levers are the same as non-disc levers, therefore compatible with eg triple chainsets. That's getting away from this particular new groupo though.

this is one of the key characteristics for me as well, i still like a triple for touring, especially on a recumbent. Not sure about on an upwrong. this multiplicity is now giving me even more problems when I spec my new Fairlight though (shh, don't tell SWMBO)
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

tiermat

  • According to Jane, I'm a Unisex SpaceAdmin
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2019, 11:28:36 am »
I notice that Tredz are offering pre-orders with an eta of 4/7.

I also notice that, officially you can have 1x and 40t at the back, or 2x and 32t. No real improvement, on the 2x over what we already have, then.
I feel like Captain Kirk, on a brand new planet every day, a little like King Kong on top of the Empire State

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2019, 12:04:25 pm »
the dreaded "H" word though, I'm not convinced yet over distance. carrying a spare break cable is easy enough, but roadside hydraulic fettling?

Depends what your failure expectations are.
If it's ripping a hose out then you've probably crashed heavily, I've not known anyone to do it while MTBing.

One of the riders on the Silk Road Mountain Race had his hydraulics fail on him, and he had to scratch. I'm not totally certain of the circumstances, but ISTR there was mention of issues re altitude and pressure.

I must admit that I still don't trust Hydraulics for the "fixable at the side of the road" requirement of brakes.

As for the GRX range. a 46/30 chainset from shimano. May I just say ABOUT FUCKING TIME! I've been bitching and moaning about this for blooming ages now, so this is great news. I'll have to study the spec sheet on all the other parts they've released to know for sure the implications of the derailures, their capacities etc... But on the whole from my first look at the info available, this looks great.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2019, 04:31:10 pm »
The 46/30 has been a long time coming for sure. I had to buy a 46/30 Sugino a couple of years ago as it was the only one available with a 24mm axle - expensive, nice quality, but the supplied bottom bracket only lasted 2200 miles. In the interim, Absolute Black will supply 46/30 chainwheels to fit an Ultegra crank. The GRX 46/30 has a wider chainline, necessitating use of the GRX FD. I like the look of the shifters which are designed for riding on the hoods. The RD is a poor compromise, as it won't allow an 11-40 cassette with a 46/30, surely the near to ideal for light touring (depending on your fitness). I see the Deore XT RD will, so a bit of an own goal from Shimano, hopefully this will work with the GRX FD (is it an MTB or road?). I'm thinking about a Di2 set up.

tiermat

  • According to Jane, I'm a Unisex SpaceAdmin
Re: New Shimano gravel groupo offers low gears, 1x
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2019, 04:49:59 pm »
If you read the Shimano tech docs, they say that the mechs are all road pull, the only mtb components that you can mix in are cassettes, then only up to 40t. I think I might be better off with a wolftooth.
I feel like Captain Kirk, on a brand new planet every day, a little like King Kong on top of the Empire State