Author Topic: GPX OR NOT GPX?  (Read 12825 times)

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #275 on: May 15, 2019, 11:54:11 am »
But the alternative of AUK developing and supporting its own route storage service I think would be a bad idea.  Not cost effective.

What development?  It's just a static file on a webserver...
You under estimate the work required to provision what on the face of things looks like a basic file store.

First off you need a week of meetings to decide the scope of the simple file store and which bells and whistle it should have, should it link to the garmin and wahoo APIs thus allowing upload directly to device which would need username etc. Etc etc etc

By the time everyone's lost the will to live at that stage you then move on to releasing it to live... Which involves another shed load of meetings because that's the entire scope of someone's job.

5 minute development = 1 week of other bulls#ite

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Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #276 on: May 15, 2019, 12:34:32 pm »
I just won't be doing so on an event that doesn't offer a GPX file of of the route.
And that is entirely your choice.
Just as it is the choice of the organiser (under the current rules) as to whether or not they offer a GPX file, and if so how they offer it (RWGPS or email attachment or on 3.5" floppy snail-mailed to entrants)

As things stand the below seems stands out as a beacon of common sense  (but maybe that's only because I am in same demographic as Chris S) :
.... most organisers now provide GPS options of some description, but they are not obliged to. Unless AUK rules have changed, the routesheet is still king and trumps all.
Being a sanguine kind of chap, if an organiser doesn't offer a GPS file, or does and it's not compatible with my device, I'll just deal with it accordingly; I'll either ride with a routesheet (unlikely), do the donkey-work to make my own GPX (much more likely), or not do the ride.
Like I say - unless the rules have changed, the printed routesheet is still the "road book", and anything else you get from the organiser is up to that organiser and there is no obligation on them to provide anything more than that.
I for one am totally comfortable with that; organisers have enough to worry about without us whining about file-formats or track-point densities.

That said, if QG, or anyone else, believes that AUK should change it's rules to make provision of GPX compulsory, then perhaps they should consider bringing a resolution before the AGM.   That would have better chances of being passed than the chances of "winning an argument on the internet"  :P

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #277 on: May 15, 2019, 01:12:42 pm »
QG: I, for one, am impressed that you have reduced the proponents of routesheets to arguments about them being a useful tool for risk assessment and planning, rather than a credible navigational option for 2019.

<ducks and runs>

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #278 on: May 15, 2019, 01:17:57 pm »
QG: I, for one, am impressed that you have reduced the proponents of routesheets to arguments about them being a useful tool for risk assessment and planning, rather than a credible navigational option for 2019.

Except that that's not the case, Tom  ::-)
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #279 on: May 15, 2019, 01:21:57 pm »
Why do you persist in this drivel?

This drivel? You mean striving for equality in an unequal world?

Quote
Next you will be going on about how football crowds are mainly men who wear nylon shirts.

Not really as I don't have enough information or experience to give that view. I will however say that I am very pleased to see the recent news reports about the various football clubs providing womens hygiene products for free in the toilets at football grounds, so as to help combat period poverty. I appreciate women and girls are a minority in the audience at such events, but simple measures like this are very welcome.

Quote
The events are what they are and will attract people of a particular mind set. I have just ridden the HellFire 400km - this is a really hard event with no toilet facilities on route and the food on offer is limited by the fact you are in Scotland and if you do not eat meat pies there is not much else on offer. Well The Brown's rode the tandem round and Mrs Brown managed just fine, there was a sporty girl in the lead group and two women from Aberdeen who I rolled in with at the end. Participation has nothing to do with any type of equality or diversity objectives set by the organiser, but the mind sets of the riders. It is good to see events where the victimised minority of unwashed while males feel at home.

The fact that you can refer to every single woman who rode, all 4 of them, kinda makes a nice point about how diverse Audax events aren't. I'm assuming there weren't just 8 riders in total.

I'm assuming that the event clearly advertises that there are no toilet facilities for 27 hours, and that the available food options are not vegetarian friendly?

I don't quite get why you think that men are a victimised minority here. Men dominate every aspect of UK life, out numbering women considerably in many fields. Of the boards of directors of FTSE 100 companies, there are more men named John, than women. You can try to claim victim hood, but the reality is just not supportive of this claim.

Are you worried that if more women start turning up to Audaxes, there won't be enough spaces for you to ride?

Just as it is the choice of the organiser (under the current rules) as to whether or not they offer a GPX file, and if so how they offer it (RWGPS or email attachment or on 3.5" floppy snail-mailed to entrants)

Yep. I do actually have a working 3.5" floppy drive, tho I've not had reason to use it recently...

It is a choice, and what this whole thread has been about, is making it easier to find events where the organiser has made that choice.

Quote
That said, if QG, or anyone else, believes that AUK should change it's rules to make provision of GPX compulsory, then perhaps they should consider bringing a resolution before the AGM.   That would have better chances of being passed than the chances of "winning an argument on the internet"  :P


I don't know where people are getting this idea from that I think a GPX should be compulsory.

I said:

Quote
suggest that AUK should make it recommended best practice that organisers should provide a quality GPX for their rides.

Not mandatory, just recommended as best practice, for organisers to follow or ignore as they see fit.

At this point I'm really tempted to propose a motion for the AUK AGM just out of spite.

QG: I, for one, am impressed that you have reduced the proponents of routesheets to arguments about them being a useful tool for risk assessment and planning, rather than a credible navigational option for 2019.
<ducks and runs>

I'm in awe at the arguments people have reached for to defend route sheets. It's taking a lot of will power not to pick each one apart individually. I particularly like the argument people have that having a printed route sheet makes it harder to get lost, and easier to find your way back on route when you get off route. I don't quite get how this works unless you also have a full map to reference.

But, as we have established, I am young, naive, inexperienced, and talking bollocks, so what do I know.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #280 on: May 15, 2019, 02:12:02 pm »
If only there was some kind of internet forum thingy where you could ask about GPX routes for AUK events that don't supply them. Oh wait, I've been lazily downloading other people's tracks from YACF for years.
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #281 on: May 15, 2019, 03:23:41 pm »
Quote
available food options are not vegetarian friendly

Hurrah! "vegetarians".

Keep it up folks  :thumbsup:

 ;D
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #282 on: May 15, 2019, 03:30:20 pm »
But the alternative of AUK developing and supporting its own route storage service I think would be a bad idea.  Not cost effective.
What development?  It's just a static file(s) on a webserver, just like a routesheet.

And AUK have provided this facility, on aukweb, for about the last 13 years.
Where I suppose people might feel it is 'not enough' is that the file has to be placed there by (or at least via) the Organiser of the event in question.  There's no facilty for Tom, Dick or Harriet to place a file in that repository, however much they might want to help - because that would require a whole new level of moderation to prevent possible sabotage.
"This is a complex subject, with a need for more than one highlighter pen."

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #283 on: May 15, 2019, 04:05:20 pm »
Unfortunately there's nothing to distinguish a perfectly valid (but stupid) GPX file from a sensible one.  Even downloading from RWGPS offers every end user that choice.

I'd argue that it's much easier for the rider to check a GPX for common stupidities. One only has to load it up and glance at the map to confirm that it at least goes to all the controls in the right order and spot any "starting from the organiser's house" type issues. A sufficiently determined organiser could create a GPX that went down a cliff or through a river, but I doubt that's a problem we see in practice (I'll stand to be corrected). It takes a lot more effort for a rider to check a route sheet for left-right mistakes that could send them arbitrarily far off course.

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #284 on: May 15, 2019, 04:55:14 pm »
Some organisers don't publish their gps file or routesheet on aukweb in order to deter freeloaders, they send it out to the registered riders via email.  Rather than using the presence of a gps file uploaded to the calendar entry, it would be better to have a tick box when editing the ride's calendar entry to say a gps file will be provided.  In fact, that's kind of like what we have now with those letters in the Facilities field, we just need a search mechanism on those.

dogtrousers

  • Pantaloon
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #285 on: May 15, 2019, 05:33:28 pm »
But the alternative of AUK developing and supporting its own route storage service I think would be a bad idea.  Not cost effective.

What development?  It's just a static file(s) on a webserver, just like a routesheet.
I meant an alternative to using a service like RWGPS as had been suggested upthread.  That is, providing visualisation and downloads for TCX, GPX, resampling for older devices and so on.    Just dumping a load of files on a webserver would, I agree, not have very high development costs.   

As a very occasional end user with a modicum of tech skills I'm OK with things as they are tbh.  And as I'm only an occasional audaxer  it's certainly not for me to suggest how things should be done.  Sorry if I gave that impression, it wasn't my intention.

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #286 on: May 15, 2019, 06:19:34 pm »
But the alternative of AUK developing and supporting its own route storage service I think would be a bad idea.  Not cost effective.

What development?  It's just a static file(s) on a webserver, just like a routesheet.
I meant an alternative to using a service like RWGPS as had been suggested upthread.  That is, providing visualisation and downloads for TCX, GPX, resampling for older devices and so on.

That seems unnecessary, given that the end user can always load the file into their visualisation tool of choice (which may be a website like RWGPS, or something local like Basecamp, Viking or OSMAnd), which is likely to be better (or at least more cost-effectively) supported than an Audax UK bespoke mapping tool.

Does RWGPS (or other popular online tools) allow you to visualise a file on an arbitrary website like Bikehike does[1]?  That would seem like an appropriate amount of effort/commitment for AUK to give to a third-party tool as a convenience for those who'd like to clicky and see a map of the ride they're thinking of entering.


[1] You can simply feed it a URL to a GPX as a parameter, and it will load and display the file for you, eg: http://www.bikehike.co.uk/mapview.php?lnk=http://www.ductilebiscuit.net/maps/FNRtME-Rollrights-1.3-reduced.gpx
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #287 on: May 16, 2019, 01:40:26 pm »
Quote
That said, if QG, or anyone else, believes that AUK should change it's rules to make provision of GPX compulsory, then perhaps they should consider bringing a resolution before the AGM.   That would have better chances of being passed than the chances of "winning an argument on the internet"  :P

I don't know where people are getting this idea from that I think a GPX should be compulsory.

I said:

Quote
suggest that AUK should make it recommended best practice that organisers should provide a quality GPX for their rides.

Not mandatory, just recommended as best practice, for organisers to follow or ignore as they see fit.


Apologies if you think I've misrepresented your views, however whether it is compulsory or simply "recommended best practice" there are still the same prerequisites:
Agreements on universal file format, point density, delivery method, all things which this thread has (yet again) demonstrated are , at best, "challenging" to achieve.

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #288 on: May 16, 2019, 02:33:32 pm »
Apologies if you think I've misrepresented your views, however whether it is compulsory or simply "recommended best practice" there are still the same prerequisites:
Agreements on universal file format, point density, delivery method, all things which this thread has (yet again) demonstrated are , at best, "challenging" to achieve.

Are we letting perfect be the enemy of good here? For my money any kind of GPX - 20k points or 500, on the AUK page or an external site or in an email attachment - is a significant improvement over none. I do feel strongly about having waypoints for controls, and about having the whole ride in a single file, but I'd still far rather have a dozen fiddly GPXes with no waypoints (whether that's because the author never added them or because they distributed it via RideWithGPS) than a routesheet alone.

If there's no clear consensus on the format then there doesn't need to be an official recommendation on format, does there? Just "we recommend you make some form of GPX file(s) available for riders who may prefer this form of navigation", with organisers free to implement that as they see fit (or not at all, if they feel strongly enough).

Carlosfandango

  • Yours fragrantly.
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #289 on: May 16, 2019, 03:56:19 pm »
I value a GPX file in the entry listing because it makes the route apparent and enables you to plan your ride. If you need toilets, specific food, gluten free or vegetarian, for example or if you're concerned about safety, where you'll be riding alone at night.

I really can't see the point of not revealing the route because of "freeloaders" there's more important reasons to reveal it before purchase.

When you think that sportives, for example provide a map, sign posting, marshalling and a contact phone number it seems pathetic that Audax organisers don't want to provide a GPX. You don't even have to ride the route, you can make a GPX on a mapping site.

As far as accessibility goes I've always found Audax awkward. Take the Brian Chapman, one of Audaxes iconic rides. There's no online entry, send a cheque, but who has a cheque book these days? Middle aged men of course, I forgot. No gpx, but then I suppose the organiser doesn't have to bother, because it's over subscribed. Sure he can run it his way, but it makes it seem like Audax is an old boys club that doesn't bother with new people different to the them.

Cambrian permanents, here's another, I'd love to have a go, but no gpx or information. I know they're free routes, but with no information provided, they just seem like macho events with one finisher per decade and that's the way they'll stay.

Why is it so difficult for Audax to be open and inclusive? To provide a little more help to the potential rider, whatever their needs?

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #290 on: May 16, 2019, 04:07:36 pm »
Most people have access to middle-aged or old people who have a cheque book; parents for instance. I'd offer to send a cheque to Carlosfandango in exchange for cash, but I'm put off by the display of 'attitude'.

Carlosfandango

  • Yours fragrantly.
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #291 on: May 16, 2019, 04:11:27 pm »
Most people have access to middle-aged or old people who have a cheque book, parents for instance. I'd offer to send a cheque to Carlosfandango in exchange for cash, but I'm put off by the display of 'attitude'.

But why should you have access to middle aged people to enter an Audax? That's just ridiculous.

My attitude is one of exasperation.

Carlosfandango

  • Yours fragrantly.
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #292 on: May 16, 2019, 04:16:58 pm »
Most people have access to middle-aged or old people who have a cheque book, parents for instance. I'd offer to send a cheque to Carlosfandango in exchange for cash, but I'm put off by the display of 'attitude'.

But why should you have access to middle aged people to enter an Audax? That's just ridiculous.

My attitude is one of exasperation.

Oh, I forgot, keep it the same as it's always been, for the same sort of people and if anyone suggests different, they must have an "attitude".

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #293 on: May 16, 2019, 04:20:03 pm »
Most people have access to middle-aged or old people who have a cheque book, parents for instance. I'd offer to send a cheque to Carlosfandango in exchange for cash, but I'm put off by the display of 'attitude'.

But why should you have access to middle aged people to enter an Audax? That's just ridiculous.

Yebbut, on the whole, Carl, you don't  ::-)

Unfortunately, you picked just one example and by a process of blithe disregard you applied it to audax in general.  I assure you that all five calendar events we held this year you could enter online, pay with PayPal, and the routesheet and a plethora of GPS files are available freely to download [edit: replete with waypoints, too]; you could also pay by cheque, or on-the-line with cash. 

And all 11 permanent events are the same, before you mention the Cambrians again.

So stop conflating, and consider that most organisers on most events are very open to inclusivity, and perhaps those that appear like they're not also are, but they have their own reasons for doing it the way they do it, eh?!  :-*
RRTY #6 done; #7 aborted and restarted.

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #294 on: May 16, 2019, 04:25:21 pm »
PayPal charges a fee. Payments can be reversed by rider without permission from organiser.. Cheque and postal entry permits some control over who gets an entry.

Three reasons why an organiser might choose it.

Ben T

  • What you saying, then?
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #295 on: May 16, 2019, 04:32:05 pm »
Chequebooks are still a standard in the UK. If you walk into a bank and ask to open a current account you should be given a chequebook. If you don't then you either haven't opened a current account, or you've specifically asked not to be sent a chequebook.

Back in the day you had cheque guarantee cards which meant you could use the chequebook to pay for stuff in shops! https://youtu.be/gV-kY9JuqDE?t=87
I do find that slightly bizarre, I must admit.

Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #296 on: May 16, 2019, 04:49:56 pm »
I really can't see the point of not revealing the route because of "freeloaders" there's more important reasons to reveal it before purchase.

When you think that sportives, for example provide a map, sign posting, marshalling and a contact phone number it seems pathetic that Audax organisers don't want to provide a GPX. You don't even have to ride the route, you can make a GPX on a mapping site.

As far as accessibility goes I've always found Audax awkward. Take the Brian Chapman, one of Audaxes iconic rides. There's no online entry, send a cheque, but who has a cheque book these days? Middle aged men of course, I forgot. No gpx, but then I suppose the organiser doesn't have to bother, because it's over subscribed. Sure he can run it his way, but it makes it seem like Audax is an old boys club that doesn't bother with new people different to the them.
"I really can't see the point of not revealing the route because of "freeloaders" there's more important reasons to reveal it before purchase." Some organisers, with experience of this happening to the detriment of their event, think otherwise. The controls are there from September onwards for any potential ride entrant to see (and if keen plot their own draft route . . . no, too much like hard work).

"it seems pathetic that Audax organisers don't want to provide a GPX." If you pity them, no doubt they feel your pity. If you think that (some) audax organisers are "miserably inadequate" that seems harsh and probably a judgement best left to those with significant organising experience to make (of their organising peers). Not me, and I suspect not you.

"As far as accessibility goes I've always found Audax awkward. Take the Brian Chapman, one of Audaxes iconic rides. There's no online entry, send a cheque, but who has a cheque book these days?" I postulate that most AudaxUK members have a cheque book and that all those based in the UK could have one in a couple of days, if they only asked.
"[The Bryan Chapman Memorial (BCM) organiser issues] No gpx, but then I suppose the organiser doesn't have to bother, because it's over subscribed. Sure he can run it his way, but it makes it seem like Audax is an old boys club that doesn't bother with new people different to the them."
I have had pleasure plotting the BCM 2019 route (6 months ago and revised as the routesheets have been e-mailed out) in RwGPS to help those who prefer not to construct such themselves: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/20922029?beta=false  A fair few have looked  at it and I assume the majority of riders have exported a tcx or gpx (for free). I hope I have been accurate and, at the weekend, will be on the lookout for riders pausing at the embedded minor aberrations :) eg start of the Barmouth bridge track.
BCM has been oversubscribed for some years, I believe. The organiser chooses to make membership of AUK a pre-requisite for entry and there is no mechanism for doing this using the online entry system (aiui) hence their choice of specifying a postal entry and cheques. Cheques get the full entry fee in the account straight away, too. I don't think there's a 'like him' issue here: I'm sure he has nothing against tall(er) men and women. And the moderating influence is whiskered.

Redlight

  • Enjoying life in the slow lane
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #297 on: May 16, 2019, 05:01:59 pm »

When you think that sportives, for example provide a map, sign posting, marshalling and a contact phone number it seems pathetic that Audax organisers don't want to provide a GPX. You don't even have to ride the route, you can make a GPX on a mapping site.


There's a big difference between the typical sportive, which is a commercial operation, aimed at making a profit and charging riders through the nose to ride on open (or, occasionally, closed) roads, and the typical AUK event, which is run by one volunteer, doing all of the work in his or her spare time and generally keeping the cost as low as it is possible to go without risking losing money by having to pay for a village hall when there are insufficient entries to cover the cost.

Yes, there are lots of other things that organisers could do, but there is a hell of a lot of work involved in running even a relatively small event, let alone a monster like the BCM, and I, for one, am very grateful that there are people willing to give up their valuable time to do it, for little or no reward (and, it seems, sometimes no thanks).  Is it such a great effort to spend an hour or so plotting your own GPX from the comprehensive route sheet that the organiser has prepared (often with helpful or essential additional information that couldn't be incorporated in to a GPX track)?
Between the Disney abattoir and the chemical refinery

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #298 on: May 16, 2019, 05:13:50 pm »
PayPal charges a fee. Payments can be reversed by rider without permission from organiser.. Cheque and postal entry permits some control over who gets an entry.

Three reasons why an organiser might choose it.

Cheques can be bounced by the writer, most banks charge a fee to do it.

Chequebooks are still a standard in the UK. If you walk into a bank and ask to open a current account you should be given a chequebook.
If you don't then you either haven't opened a current account, or you've specifically asked not to be sent a chequebook.

In the case of my Bank you have to specifically ask to for one, and their Basic account doesn't include one at all.

And clicking on the 3 Flex account types and then cheque book you'll see the text
"If you would like a cheque book you can request one online, over the phone or in one of our branches. "

The "Basic" Current account doesn't have one and you won't get one unless you change to a Flex account and ask for one:
https://www.nationwide.co.uk/products/current-accounts/flexbasic/features-and-benefits

Back in 2012 Nationwide were one of 2 out of 18 banks that still treated Cheque books as default
https://conversation.which.co.uk/money/cheque-book-bank-building-society/

Other banks may now vary.

Back in the day you had cheque guarantee cards which meant you could use the chequebook to pay for stuff in shops! https://youtu.be/gV-kY9JuqDE?t=87

Back in the day... 2004 when I worked in a computer shop, we always ran a Transac check on any Cheques, as such I processed one and had 5 customers decide to use their Credit Cards after all.
Cheque Guarantee cards usually only guaranteed up to £100

Carlosfandango

  • Yours fragrantly.
Re: GPX OR NOT GPX?
« Reply #299 on: May 16, 2019, 05:18:43 pm »
Cheque books aren`t standard, you have to ask for one. The point is, why would an organiser choose to make it more difficult to enter an Audax? Why are they running an Audax for there own long established benefit, rather than for the benefit of those who may enter?