Author Topic: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout  (Read 513 times)

Any fixes?

I've tried replacing the mavic skewer with a shimano one. The shimano one was much better, but the skewer (or perhaps I should say the axle) still moves when I give it beans (for certain values thereof).

P
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 09:19:49 pm »
Is it a 135mm spaced bike? If it is, check you arent accidentally using a 130mm qr

IanN

  • Voon
Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 09:37:36 pm »
I've had similar with a Surly Cross-Check. I put it down to the powdercoating being slippy, so keyed the surface of the drop out, and used a Shimano QR with prominent metal 'teeth' (for want of a more technical word).
Scuffing up chrome drop-outs may not be your favoured approach, though.

What would be the problem with a 130mm QR?

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 09:49:00 pm »
If it's an old frame, respaced for modern axle dimensions, you may need the services of a framebuilder to ensure the dropouts are parallel.

Assuming the friction surface is not scored, pitted or (and I've seen this a lot recently) heavily indented from overtightened wheel nuts, that's the most likely cause. Fit a solid axle and track nuts...
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 09:52:02 pm »
Is it a 135mm spaced bike? If it is, check you arent accidentally using a 130mm qr
I don’t know, but I don’t think that could be the problem in this case. The skewer came with the wheel from new and has been fine on other bikes (same wheel) for the last 10+ years. The wheel fits properly in the dropouts.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019, 09:52:50 pm »
Check the QR and its acorn nut have STEEL serrations.  Alu skewers with built-in serrations are only good for vertical dropouts.  Also lubricate the cam of the QR.
Never tell me the odds.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2019, 11:16:30 pm »
There's a significant difference in the effectiveness of internal and external cams. Which do you have? Try the internal one.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2019, 11:40:48 pm »
I didn't believe this when first informed, but not only are internal cam QRs better than external cams (which I find easy to believe) but most security skewers offer a higher tension than any cam-operated QR.  QR tension compresses the axle slightly (by about 80um with a typical steel axle) which means you can use bearing free play as a proxy for QR skewer tension.  To my surprise security skewers I tried  easily gave about +25% more tension than even a decent internal cam skewer.

Anyway
- the chrome is naturally very slippy and if it is still present on the inside faces of the dropouts most locknuts will slip.
- Locknuts need good serrations on them in order not to slip easily.
- IME if you are running singlespeed this is usually worse than running derailleur gears and fixed is usually worse than that.
- A nutted axle can exert two or three times as much tension as any QR skewer

cheers

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 06:31:39 am »
Check that the axle isn't too long for the drop out on either side. I had a sliding wheel in an old Raleigh, and the reason was I'd respaced the wheel to fit but hadn't changed the axle. The QR was bottoming out on the axle without really contacting the frame well enough to grip.
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2019, 07:45:27 am »
on the latter point often simply removing the spring from the QR makes more room and allows a thin dropout to be clamped.

cheers

S2L

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2019, 08:48:56 am »
Maybe your dropouts need to be aligned vertically. Also, use the tiny screws that fix the position of the axle in the dropout

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2019, 10:02:53 am »
apologies if this is obvious but if the dropouts need alignment, you can usually see them flex as the QR is tightened.

cheers

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2019, 11:13:55 am »
so keyed the surface of the drop out, and used a Shimano QR with prominent metal 'teeth' (for want of a more technical word).
Scuffing up chrome drop-outs may not be your favoured approach, though.
This might be part of the solution. The dropouts are very clean. Almost suspiciously clean, given that the rest of the frame looks well used.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2019, 11:16:10 am »
If it's an old frame, respaced for modern axle dimensions, you may need the services of a framebuilder to ensure the dropouts are parallel.

Assuming the friction surface is not scored, pitted or (and I've seen this a lot recently) heavily indented from overtightened wheel nuts, that's the most likely cause. Fit a solid axle and track nuts...
I'm guessing mid-nineties or later. Colnago, steel, straight forks. The dropouts look to be right.

It's geared (campag 10s), so I don't think solid axle/track nuts are ideal.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019, 11:17:24 am »
Check the QR and its acorn nut have STEEL serrations.  Alu skewers with built-in serrations are only good for vertical dropouts.  Also lubricate the cam of the QR.
Will do. I think the shimano qr has steel serrations.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2019, 11:18:27 am »
There's a significant difference in the effectiveness of internal and external cams. Which do you have? Try the internal one.
Both. The mavic one was external. the shimano one internal. The shimano one is noticeably better, but still slipping under  power.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2019, 11:20:31 am »
...
- the chrome is naturally very slippy and if it is still present on the inside faces of the dropouts most locknuts will slip.
- Locknuts need good serrations on them in order not to slip easily.
...

I hadn't considered the inside surfaces and the locknuts. The inside face of the dropouts is equally smooth, and the serrations on the locknuts are almost non-existent.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2019, 11:20:54 am »
Check that the axle isn't too long for the drop out on either side. I had a sliding wheel in an old Raleigh, and the reason was I'd respaced the wheel to fit but hadn't changed the axle. The QR was bottoming out on the axle without really contacting the frame well enough to grip.
Checked: not this.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2019, 11:22:06 am »
...use the tiny screws that fix the position of the axle in the dropout
I think they are only useful for positioning the wheel. They wouldn't stop it being pulled forwards by the chain.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2019, 12:53:58 pm »
...
- the chrome is naturally very slippy and if it is still present on the inside faces of the dropouts most locknuts will slip.
- Locknuts need good serrations on them in order not to slip easily.
...

I hadn't considered the inside surfaces and the locknuts. The inside face of the dropouts is equally smooth, and the serrations on the locknuts are almost non-existent.

that is where most of the useful grip is generated; for the QR to prevent slippage directly the skewer has to move to one side in the axle bore and has to resist bending/shearing. The first means the wheel has already moved and the second is a big ask for something 5mm in diameter.  BITD I changed the RH locknut for a new one every year or so on my campag NR hubs, because the serrations wore down and made slippage likely. There are plenty of modern hubs that are clearly only meant for vertical dropouts really; they have aluminium locknuts and/or sod-all grip on a horizontal dropout.

cheers

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2019, 01:50:37 pm »
...
- the chrome is naturally very slippy and if it is still present on the inside faces of the dropouts most locknuts will slip.
- Locknuts need good serrations on them in order not to slip easily.
...

I hadn't considered the inside surfaces and the locknuts. The inside face of the dropouts is equally smooth, and the serrations on the locknuts are almost non-existent.

that is where most of the useful grip is generated; for the QR to prevent slippage directly the skewer has to move to one side in the axle bore and has to resist bending/shearing. The first means the wheel has already moved and the second is a big ask for something 5mm in diameter.  BITD I changed the RH locknut for a new one every year or so on my campag NR hubs, because the serrations wore down and made slippage likely. There are plenty of modern hubs that are clearly only meant for vertical dropouts really; they have aluminium locknuts and/or sod-all grip on a horizontal dropout.

cheers
The wheels are Mavic Cosmos. They came with a bike that had vertical rear dropouts, so I suppose they've never been tested like this.

Time to dive into the bits drawer.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: QR skewer slipping in chrome, horizontal rear driveside dropout
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2019, 08:57:26 pm »
Consarn it. The locknut on the mavic is specific. I’ve got about 20 locknuts to choose from (wheels on other bikes, spare wheels and the odd old axle) but - of course - none of them is the same as the one on the drive side of the mavic wheel.

Drat and double drat.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.