Author Topic: Coping with the Dozies  (Read 3265 times)

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2019, 12:03:01 pm »
I would have no problems using pills for Audax. I'd draw the line at panzer chocolate but caffeine pills are very useful. I used to use them when I'd go rowing at 0600. Alarm goes off, take two, snooze for another 10 minutes and then leap out of bed. It's no different to drinking coffee.
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S2L

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2019, 12:17:35 pm »

I don't class Audax as intense activity.   Zone 1/Zone 2  at best.

Do you normally fall asleep when you are doing zone 2 activities?  ::-)

S2L

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2019, 12:20:10 pm »
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

I don't think the "extreme" label is one we want to wear

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2019, 12:25:48 pm »

I don't class Audax as intense activity.   Zone 1/Zone 2  at best.

Do you normally fall asleep when you are doing zone 2 activities?  ::-)

I've had the dozies during a 24hr time trial, so yes.

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2019, 12:30:58 pm »
I used to always pack some pro-plus tablets in case of issues, but I've just realised I haven't carried them at all this year.   A couple of pro plus is still less caffeine than an espresso and I would always rather have the coffee.   It's just that sometimes you can't find a coffee when you really want one.

I've not been near to falling asleep on any audaxes this year but some of the benefit is down to improved pace, allowing me to grab some sleep during the event.

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #55 on: June 06, 2019, 01:09:06 pm »
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

I don't think the "extreme" label is one we want to wear

How about bold and daring ?  :)

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - a Pacific bike ride
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #56 on: June 06, 2019, 01:14:45 pm »
Caffeine is quite slow acting.  Some sugar is good to get you through the first few minutes until our kicks in. 

Crystal meth also helps.

Intense exercise can be good too.  I got the dozies riding into Brest on PBP but didn't want to nap so closer to a proper stop, so jumped off the front of my group and nailed it into the town to keep myself awake.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #57 on: June 06, 2019, 01:24:39 pm »
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

The stigma around 'pills' is ridiculous. I can afford a pack of Tesco caffeine pills - they are cheap and easily stored. What is more expensive and time consuming is drinking coffee. There is no difference between caffeine in pill form and in roasted-bean-in-water form except the misplaced stigmatisation of pills. The way we shame people for using a pill product is absurd. It was particularly painful for me to have to convince a close relative that using the anti depressant pills his doctor prescribed him was OK, this whole stupid anti pill sentiment probably has origins in some ghastly tradition we are best rid of.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-people-mental-health-disorders-stop-taking-their-medications
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Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #58 on: June 06, 2019, 02:18:37 pm »
Excessive time at controls can be a sign something else is wrong - either your mind is no long on the ride or you're suffering physically one way or another. The fiddling with bag/phone/etc is just something to do with your hands.

I can't imagine many riders get anything like 5-6 hours sleep on a typical BRM 600.

A couple of models

Rider A moves at 25 km/h and spends 30 minutes at each of the 8 controls, it will take him/her 24 hours moving + 4 hours at controls, so in a BRM that's 12 hours to play with, obviously not 12 hours sleep, because he/she would probably be out of time at the following control, but still a lot of time.
Should the same rider spend 1 hours at each control, then it's "only" 8 hours to play with

Rider B moves at 20 km/h, using the same model, it's 30 hours on the road + 4 at controls, still a 6 hours contingency, which means possibly up to 4 hours sleep at the night contro, not bad.
With 1 hour at each control, then it's 38 hours, which means only 2 hours contingency, a lot less at the time of the night control, and basically zero time to sleep or he/she will be out of time at the following control.

If moving at less than 20km/h in a non AAA event, one should question whether BRM is suitable.

Ultimately, an Audax is a "race" against time, faffing with smart phones and taking 15 minutes from wanting to leave the control to actually leaving the control needs to be fixed
expaning on the 25kmh model, assuming sleeping at 350km then it takes 14 hours riding to get there, + 2 hours at the 4 controls along the way, so 16 hours, starting at 6 that means arrival at 10pm. the 400km control will be open until 9am so a prudent rider would want to leave by 6, giving an hour to eat etc and a generous 7 hours of sleep.

reducing moving speed to 22.2kmh increases travelling time to 18 hours to reach the 400km mark, 3 hours for the controls allows 6 hours sleep, although 5 hours to allow contingency when heading for the first control on day 2 is probably wiser. Things get easier if you reach 400km before stopping, but then its getting a bit late to be stopping possibly 3am, OK with a sleep control but much harder if booking in somewhere.

Yes its possible to push on with less sleep and finish earlier, but its not a race and no one cares weather you finish 5 minutes before the deadline or 5 hours. So why not enjoy the ride as much as possible by not being sleep deprived.
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2019, 02:38:10 pm »
Yes - any time you're not moving, you should be sleeping, eating with a knife and fork or going to the lav !

The most efficient of us, might try and combine these perhaps ;-)

Restocking supplies of food and drink, as well as adjusting clothing and fettling mechanicals are best NOT done on the move IMHO!

I'm afraid these thing take TIME but should be done efficiently.

S2L

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2019, 02:45:48 pm »

Restocking supplies of food and drink, as well as adjusting clothing and fettling mechanicals are best NOT done on the move IMHO!

I'm afraid these thing take TIME but should be done efficiently.

I tend to do long events with a friend, we are well matched in terms of moving speed and needs. However, he tends to spend 5 minutes faffing with things in the seat pack, whilst I am ready to go.
Sometimes it's just the order one does things or how things are packed... it's pointless to have a spare inner tube ready available and and the battery charger hidden at the bottom... you might need the former on rare occasions, when you will waste time anyway, but you will need the latter more than once in a 600.

5 minutes at each control is almost an hour of just faffing... and then of course there are smart phones... I wonder how much time people waste at controls checking their phone with respect to 20-30 years ago when these things didn't exist

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2019, 02:48:39 pm »
Restocking supplies of food and drink, as well as adjusting clothing and fettling mechanicals are best NOT done on the move IMHO!

I'm afraid these thing take TIME but should be done efficiently.

I generally do this stuff in parallel with digesting things, regulating my body temperature and resting my knees.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2019, 02:55:41 pm »
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

The stigma around 'pills' is ridiculous. I can afford a pack of Tesco caffeine pills - they are cheap and easily stored. What is more expensive and time consuming is drinking coffee. There is no difference between caffeine in pill form and in roasted-bean-in-water form except the misplaced stigmatisation of pills. The way we shame people for using a pill product is absurd. It was particularly painful for me to have to convince a close relative that using the anti depressant pills his doctor prescribed him was OK, this whole stupid anti pill sentiment probably has origins in some ghastly tradition we are best rid of.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-people-mental-health-disorders-stop-taking-their-medications
I don't think it's pills the stigma is being attached to, whether caffeine, sugar or amphetamine. It's the forcing yourself to ride when very sleepy.
An ungovernable laughter, a joyous agitation which makes the summer stretching before you seem like an unrolling canvas on which you might draw those first rude pure strokes that are free. (Capote)

S2L

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2019, 03:04:27 pm »
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

The stigma around 'pills' is ridiculous. I can afford a pack of Tesco caffeine pills - they are cheap and easily stored. What is more expensive and time consuming is drinking coffee. There is no difference between caffeine in pill form and in roasted-bean-in-water form except the misplaced stigmatisation of pills. The way we shame people for using a pill product is absurd. It was particularly painful for me to have to convince a close relative that using the anti depressant pills his doctor prescribed him was OK, this whole stupid anti pill sentiment probably has origins in some ghastly tradition we are best rid of.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-do-people-mental-health-disorders-stop-taking-their-medications
I don't think it's pills the stigma is being attached to, whether caffeine, sugar or amphetamine. It's the forcing yourself to ride when very sleepy.

That...

If I was a driver, I'd be terrified at the idea of having someone falling off his bike and ending up under my wheels as a result of lack of sleep.
If you are too tired to stay awake, you should sleep. If sleeping means you won't make the validation time, then you shouldn't be there.
I don't think there is anything to brag about in sleep deprivation and personally I don't think it portraits a positive image of Audax.

There you go, I've said it... :-)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2019, 03:06:49 pm »
I don't think it's pills the stigma is being attached to, whether caffeine, sugar or amphetamine. It's the forcing yourself to ride when very sleepy.

Pills are certainly stigmatised by society, "maybe you'd be healthier if you didn't take so much medication" is a real thing people say.  But I agree that's not really the context here.

I'd say it was a combination of the expectation that it's reasonable to push your body to the point where it needs chemical assistance (in whatever form) to function, and stigmatisation of people who then do so.  No, that doesn't really make sense, but that's audax for you.

Yes, there are probably some people who look down on energy gels, caffeine pills and screenwash, while considering the repeated consumption of extra-strong WTFucinos and McNastyBurgers to be normal and ordinary.  But that's just random snobbery, like looking down on people for riding carbon-fibre bikes and navigating by GPS.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2019, 03:26:13 pm »
I use all kinds of chemical assistance in audax. I use synthetic hydrocarbons to lubricate my bike and make up my technical fabrics. I smear chemicals all over myself to prevent sunburn and skin cancer. God help me I even cushion my groin with synthetic foam. I am also on prescribed medication for a long term problem. Using stuff like caffeine to be more alert and increase the time I can spend in the saddle is a complete non issue to me.
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Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2019, 03:45:03 pm »

I don't think there is anything to brag about in sleep deprivation and personally I don't think it portraits a positive image of Audax.


Don't think I noticed anyone bragging about sleep deprivation ... perhaps I nodded off for a bit  ;)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2019, 03:50:11 pm »
I'd say it was a combination of the expectation that it's reasonable to push your body to the point where it needs chemical assistance (in whatever form) to function, and stigmatisation of people who then do so.  No, that doesn't really make sense, but that's audax for you.
That's not (only) audax, that's society at large. Think of all the other contexts in which people take amphetamines, energy drinks, special pills which allegedly make your brain function better, etc: everything from all-night dancing to exams.

As a tangent, I know a bloke who, since the age of 3 (and he's two months younger than me... ) has been on medication to control epilepsy. I can't remember the name of it but a side effect is it makes him really drowsy in the mornings. At 10am he is still only semi-awake, seems drugged, woozy. He drinks a couple or more coffees and starts to function normally. But he says that every now and again he forgets to take his medication and wakes up feeling sharp; and doesn't like it. Presumably simply because he isn't used to the unemediated sensations, though it's not just sensations, what he says he really doesn't like is the feeling his brain is sharper.
An ungovernable laughter, a joyous agitation which makes the summer stretching before you seem like an unrolling canvas on which you might draw those first rude pure strokes that are free. (Capote)

S2L

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2019, 04:47:00 pm »
I use all kinds of chemical assistance in audax. I use synthetic hydrocarbons to lubricate my bike and make up my technical fabrics. I smear chemicals all over myself to prevent sunburn and skin cancer. God help me I even cushion my groin with synthetic foam. I am also on prescribed medication for a long term problem. Using stuff like caffeine to be more alert and increase the time I can spend in the saddle is a complete non issue to me.

If you think that you can replace sleep with caffeine and be safe, then good for you. It's a gamble I am not prepared to take.

The good thing about cycling, especially at night outside of cities, as opposed to driving, is that if you take risks, generally you are the one paying the price, as opposed to passing the risk to others :thumbsup:

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #69 on: June 06, 2019, 06:44:50 pm »
If I was a driver, I'd be terrified at the idea of having someone falling off his bike and ending up under my wheels as a result of lack of sleep.
If you are too tired to stay awake, you should sleep. If sleeping means you won't make the validation time, then you shouldn't be there.
I don't think there is anything to brag about in sleep deprivation and personally I don't think it portraits a positive image of Audax.

There you go, I've said it... :-)

overtaking too close?
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #70 on: June 06, 2019, 06:49:43 pm »
I use all kinds of chemical assistance in audax. I use synthetic hydrocarbons to lubricate my bike and make up my technical fabrics. I smear chemicals all over myself to prevent sunburn and skin cancer. God help me I even cushion my groin with synthetic foam. I am also on prescribed medication for a long term problem. Using stuff like caffeine to be more alert and increase the time I can spend in the saddle is a complete non issue to me.

If you think that you can replace sleep with caffeine and be safe, then good for you. It's a gamble I am not prepared to take.

The good thing about cycling, especially at night outside of cities, as opposed to driving, is that if you take risks, generally you are the one paying the price, as opposed to passing the risk to others :thumbsup:

We are all taking risks. If you don't want to take risks stay at home and do zwift. We are adults who can judge whether caffeine products are enough to make the balance of risk suitable for ourselves.
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S2L

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #71 on: June 06, 2019, 06:53:43 pm »

We are all taking risks. If you don't want to take risks stay at home and do zwift.

There is no need, I am one of those who can get 8 hours of sleep...  :thumbsup:

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #72 on: June 06, 2019, 10:40:18 pm »
More generally, I don't think it's a great advert for Audax, reading about riders popping pills to stay awake while they ride their bike because they didn't have time to sleep.

The stigma around 'pills' is ridiculous. I can afford a pack of Tesco caffeine pills - they are cheap and easily stored. What is more expensive and time consuming is drinking coffee. There is no difference between caffeine in pill form and in roasted-bean-in-water form except the misplaced stigmatisation of pills.

Or for that matter in fizzy juice form, which includes Diet Coke at 42mg per 330ml can and Coke at 32mg per 330ml can.
And Tea though that varies by steeping time.
And chocolate too
And....

You really have to deliberately buy caffeine free products to avoid it fully.


The idea of needing 8 hours sleep is hokum too, invented at some point following the electric light, natural sleep patterns are much more complex and very personal too.
Something that was very obvious when Iroromono and I rode the "Kingdom Come" and "Snow Roads" perms this winter.
I cope fine with the long periods of darkness (and in the case of Kingdom Come until I sat down on the train); though give me a chance to sleep as on "Over the Hill and Back" and I have to get a time that matches by sleep cycle and rarely sleep "just anywhere".
Iroromono needed a snooze on the Snow Roads at 1am and similar on our abandoned attempt at the "Central Scotland 300" as that's his sleep pattern.


Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #73 on: June 06, 2019, 10:49:39 pm »
Dozies for me tends to be a certain time of night. It is usually somewhere between 3am and 5am.  A natural dip driven by body clock. So aim to be able to be off the bike at that time and if not poss I just watch for the signs then take a break finding somewhere to shut my eyes. Once daylight arrives my body clock resets and I'm good to go.  Only used caffeine on a ride once and that was three cans of coke to get me to a sleep control on the Wild Atlantic Way Audax.  Normally I just go with the body and sleep as necessary.

On the PBP night start I didn't get the dozies on the first night last time. I find riding through the night when fresh often means I don't get the dozies. On the third night I got the dozies mid control, so pulled off the road and got my head down behind some trees away from bike lights. That did the trick and I was fine when I woke and set off again. But at the next control I opted for another longer sleep.

Later on PBP I did watch a rider in front of me fall asleep and veer across the road straight into a deep ditch. I had to climb down into the ditch to get him out and some other riders stopped to help get his bike out. Luckily a soft ditch. The rider abandoned at the next control.

Re: Coping with the Dozies
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2019, 03:18:06 pm »
How have people found coming off caffeine ?   Is cold turkey the best way ?

I've dropped down to one double espresso, post commute in and then a can of diet coke lunchtime.

I'm wondering whether to withdraw one of these next week as a steady bleed out.