Author Topic: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC  (Read 4628 times)

Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2019, 09:24:53 pm »
Leyland is the sort of place where people get a vehicle with the job. It's on the motorway network, so a typical scenario would be servicing supermarket tills, or process lines in the week, and using the vehicle for hill-walking, rock-climbing, cycle time trials or whatever at the weekend.

We are, of course, much more tolerant of HGVs than anywhere else in the UK, as we still bolt them together.

I had a day out building a nature garden in a primary school North of Lancaster yesterday. The Wildlife trust has got some money from the Sugar Tax to provide outdoor facilities for the kids. Heading North for these activities is a pleasure, as the M6 is fairly benign North of Preston. Heading into Manchester is pretty grim though. The actual construction depended on battery hand tools and petrol chainsaw. Battery power tools are gradually taking over, as will electric vehicles. That won't change city life much, apart from the air quality.

fd3

Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2019, 09:41:18 pm »
Reducing cars and traffic is something other people do.
I think we have been well taught that solving problems is an issue for other people/society/the govt.  E.g. taxes: if you're poor you have no money, so not fair to pay increased tax, if you're rich you pay too much already, don't raise my taxes, if you're in the middle - ffs, pick o those rich bastards or those feckless poor people.
[/I could be wrong]

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2019, 10:02:07 pm »
I know quite a few people who could easily afford a car but don't have one for various reasons. And I'm not thinking of cyclists. But that's just the type of people I know... Probably only one of them is carless out of greenery, for the others it's lack of incentive to have one.

That's because you're a hippy.

I can't drive*. That said, I do have a car (half a one, I own the passenger side). We purposefully rarely use it and it's only really there for occasional convenience. These are the choices that we make. We built a society where we have to drive, it didn't just happen, it's not a natural corollary. To be honest, had the vast sums spent on this project been spent in some other way (remember, the car manufacturers don't pay for the roads and infrastructure either, or the pollution, or the hospital bills etc.), or just dumped all that cash in our bank accounts, we'd all have been a lot happier.

I just don't really get it. I watched a stupid new bloated Range Rover cruise by me earlier. Utterly impractical, a car so ugly it's own mother would try to drown it, and I'm sure cost a small fortune. Why bother?

*I can really, but I don't have a UK licence and I suspect my US one is long past any sell-by, anyway, I've not driven for two decades and I've no plans to do it again.
!nataS pihsroW

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2019, 10:10:38 pm »
The last time I said anyone was a hippy was on an audax several years ago. She'd just been telling me about her work in organic vegetable imports. She said "I am not a hippy!"and put on a burst of speed to ride away from me (not difficult, obvs). I think it's fair to say we've forgiven each other since then. ;D She doesn't have a car by the way (no idea if she has a licence). Anyway, lots of hippies own cars. I think it's only urban hippies that don't.

Somebody told me yesterday (and I haven't checked this) that there are four firms in Bristol involved in developing flying cars. I'm talking about automotive aviation, not some hippy drug metaphor. Anyway, this person's daughter had responded, "Well dur! Where are you going to park them all?"  :D (The person who told me this has a car, it can't fly and it's not electric.)
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2019, 11:14:31 pm »
[Cars.] Why bother?


It might surprise you to learn that outside of London there aren't traffic lights every 8 yards and you can sometimes actually make reasonable progress in a car.
It is what it is. It's not what it's not, so it must be what it is.

fd3

Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2019, 11:18:07 am »
Yeahbut, even in Birmingham (the UK's answer to LA) it's as quick/quicker to take the bike and it's inordinately cheaper (not to mention the 40,000 savings on your house costs by not needing a driveway).
[/I could be wrong]

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2019, 10:51:21 am »

Anyway, lots of hippies own cars. I think it's only urban hippies that don't.


Surely hippies own vans, or old buses? I read it inna book heard it in a song lyric.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
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ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2019, 09:24:20 am »
[Cars.] Why bother?


It might surprise you to learn that outside of London there aren't traffic lights every 8 yards and you can sometimes actually make reasonable progress in a car.

It's true that I've never ventured beyond The Wall that surrounds London. Not that, of course, the hoards could take on the Army of the Cosmopolitan Elites, but we really don't want people, especially those from up north, coming in to take our jackfruit tacos.

Of course, wherever you are, same old shit really – the car rules absolutely. People just don't walk, even when we can, because we've made motoring so cheap and convenient at everyone else's expense.
!nataS pihsroW

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2019, 09:35:14 am »
FSVO reasonable progress. There aren’t many ways out of this part of Somerset and on the shortest route to the M5 the main A road goes through a village where cars can’t pass. HGVs and tourist coaches always go through there. The result is frequent gridlock and it must be awful for the residents.

fd3

Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2019, 10:35:29 am »
Funding announced for wireless charging of electric cars.  Surely wireless charging will be much less efficient.
[/I could be wrong]

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2019, 12:53:33 pm »
Funding announced for wireless charging of electric cars.  Surely wireless charging will be much less efficient.

I think they can manage 80-90% efficiency if the pads are correctly aligned.  Which is fine because as soon as you're using it to lug a tonne of metal around, electricity seems really cheap.

TBH, I reckon inductive charging is the best solution for on-street charging.  With the best will in the world, ah-hoc trailing wires are a hazard in areas with pedestrian traffic.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2019, 04:10:32 pm »
Funding announced for wireless charging of electric cars.  Surely wireless charging will be much less efficient.

Less efficient but more convenient, and convenience is what changes large scale behaviour patterns IMO.
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quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2019, 06:20:28 pm »
Funding announced for wireless charging of electric cars.  Surely wireless charging will be much less efficient.

Less efficient but more convenient, and convenience is what changes large scale behaviour patterns IMO.

Surely bigger issue is it's only one way, so you can't use it for vehicle to grid?

J
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bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2019, 09:18:50 am »
That is true.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2019, 12:20:06 pm »
Is it?  Surely that's just a problem of engineering.

Assuming it's still worth it after the efficiency losses...
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2019, 05:54:35 pm »
How does an induction loop work? I'm guessing it has an AC current and the alternation of the current creates the magnetic field which induces a charge in the battery? But as the battery is DC, how is it to create a current in the loop?
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2019, 06:14:43 pm »
How does an induction loop work? I'm guessing it has an AC current and the alternation of the current creates the magnetic field which induces a charge in the battery?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_charging

Quote
But as the battery is DC, how is it to create a current in the loop?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_inverter
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2019, 06:20:22 pm »
How does an induction loop work? I'm guessing it has an AC current and the alternation of the current creates the magnetic field which induces a charge in the battery?

Yeah, it's just a transformer with an air[1]-gap for a core, rather than the traditional (and more efficient) laminated iron.


Quote
But as the battery is DC, how is it to create a current in the loop?

The same way it creates an alternating current to drive the motor[2]: With an inverter.  Bunch of FETs[3] or IGBTs[3] in an H-bridge arrangement[4], switching the current one way and then the other, basically.  Same sort of device used to couple PV panels to the mains, or provide an AC supply from battery power in a UPS.





[1] And structural plastic, etc, which might as well be air from a magnetic viewpoint.
[2] Which is usually an induction or permanent magnet synchronous motor that requires variable-frequency AC to operate.  The advantage over a true DC motor is there are no brushes to wear out, and it's easier to do speed control efficiently.
[3] Semiconductor device that uses magic smoke to switch electricity.
[4] Other topologies are available.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

fd3

Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2019, 06:50:31 pm »
Is fitting a number of wireless charging points really easier than fitting a number of plug sockets?
[/I could be wrong]

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2019, 06:59:05 pm »
Is fitting a number of wireless charging points really easier than fitting a number of plug sockets?

No, but it might be attractive for public on-street charging, being more vandal-proof, and not posing a trip hazard to pedestrians (particularly visually-impaired pedestrians).  Nobody's going to bother with it on their driveway, and unless it becomes widely adopted, I think the cost may be prohibitive for private car parks.

Inductive charging has the potential advantage that you can use it while in motion (I'm picturing stretches of 'charging lane' on the motorway).  Which might be rendered obsolete by improvements in battery technology before it's rolled out, of course.

I suspect it's mostly going to end up in bus stops and taxi ranks.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
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Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2019, 07:09:20 pm »
If induction charging were available and the up-front cost wasn't prohibitive, I would consider it.

Because Dez is about to take delivery of a Tesla, and I have a Leaf, we had to change our 7kw charging point from a tethered to an untethered one. Annoyingly, the new unit doesn't lock the Mennekes plug into the socket when charging. Given that our charging space is completely accessible to passers-by, there's nothing to stop Nefarious Scrotes from unplugging the cable and either picking the (mechanical) lock at the car end (not difficult, apparently, but I haven't tried) and making off with about £200's worth of charging cable, or simply cutting the cable for the value of the copper. This is persuading us that we should charge up during the hours of daylight, and lock the cable back in the car as soon as the car is charged, rather than plugging it in when we arrive home and allowing the timer to start charging at midnight, when there's less demand on the grid, and unplugging it the following morning, or when we next want to drive he car.

I would imagine that induction charging would obviate Kim's lovely theory about electric cars providing battery backup to the national grid when it becomes advanced enough. But I know buggerall about the science behind these things.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2019, 07:24:23 pm »
Quote
But as the battery is DC, how is it to create a current in the loop?
The same way it creates an alternating current to drive the motor[2]: With an inverter. 
Ah. Yeah. Dur.  :facepalm:
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2019, 07:25:53 pm »
I suspect it's mostly going to end up in bus stops and taxi ranks.
There are one or two bus routes in Bristol with inductive charging at the terminal stops. Whether they'll stay in use longer than the "poo buses" (methane burners) before them remains to be seen.
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2019, 08:44:34 pm »
How does an induction loop work? I'm guessing it has an AC current and the alternation of the current creates the magnetic field which induces a charge in the battery? But as the battery is DC, how is it to create a current in the loop?
With a bridge rectifier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_bridge, which is how just about every bit of electronics, such as phones, LED light bulbs, computers, electric toothbrushes and many more, is powered from the AC mains.

(Electric car chargers may use something more sophisticated, to be more efficient or something.)
Quote from: Kim
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quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Electric cars won't save the planet article on BBC
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2019, 11:04:23 pm »
No, but it might be attractive for public on-street charging, being more vandal-proof, and not posing a trip hazard to pedestrians (particularly visually-impaired pedestrians).  Nobody's going to bother with it on their driveway, and unless it becomes widely adopted, I think the cost may be prohibitive for private car parks.

Inductive charging has the potential advantage that you can use it while in motion (I'm picturing stretches of 'charging lane' on the motorway).  Which might be rendered obsolete by improvements in battery technology before it's rolled out, of course.

I suspect it's mostly going to end up in bus stops and taxi ranks.

I'm not so sure it will be of any use. For bus stops, you want a much higher currant than the inductive charging is going to give. You're better off with a pantagraph that can deploy quickly, charge for a minute or 2, then retract and go onwards. Bus stops have the advantage that you control all vehicles using it, and you have some infrastructure in place as well.

For Taxi ranks, I think the utility is minimal. Battery vehicles with 300+km ranges are the becoming the norm, so the need to recharge during a shift is not going to be that high, esp given the usual utilisation of a taxi.

Inductive charging is a nice idea, but I think before it becomes a mature technology, batteries and the charging there of will make it redundant. The primary use case for inductive charging is shared on street parking. If you have a vehicle with a 500km range, and that can charge in 10-15 minutes, then for most drivers, a trip to the fuel station once a month or so, solves the charging problem. Co-locate it with a supermarket or coffee shop, and the amount of time involved becomes largely irrelevant.

Ultimately, the range of a typical BEV is going to reach similar to petrol tank of an average petrol vehicle, and the charging time is going to be within the 5-15 minute range, in the very short term future. We're seeing 350KW chargers starting to be installed. If you have a 50KWh battery, that's going to charge in approximately 12 minutes (give or take).

I suspect it's mostly going to end up in bus stops and taxi ranks.
There are one or two bus routes in Bristol with inductive charging at the terminal stops. Whether they'll stay in use longer than the "poo buses" (methane burners) before them remains to be seen.

Round these parts at the end of route for some buses, there is a setup where the bus drives into a parking space, a pantograph springs up, power engages, the driver gets out, goes to exchange coffees, and have a break, then gets back in, retracts the pantograph, and resumes their shift. Charging rate is pretty damn high, and poses less risk than inductive charging.

Inductive charging means you have a bloody great big transformer. Which is also a bloody great big radio transmitter (tho on a very very very low frequency, and with really shit efficiency). This is going to cause issues for pacemakers, and anything magnetic that goes in range (credit card mag strip?). The RF interference is also going to be a fun one to deal with.

All in all, a nice idea, but not really going to be useful in the long term, and perhaps the efforts going into it could be better spent elsewhere...
J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/