Author Topic: Controls + Distances  (Read 6565 times)

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #125 on: September 26, 2019, 09:18:05 pm »
The early AUKs were mostly long-distance TTers (24hr Fellowship) or hard-riding tourists and had a DNF rate around 10% or below. That certainly isn’t how most newer PBP countries start nowadays, though the Russians and some Eastern European contingents hew close to that model.


Don't get me wrong, I can see how the 24hr TT and hard-rider ethos is a solid base for a low DNF rate. Indeed those of us who used to be fast but are now just old and slow are still benefiting from early, youthful experiences of pushing very hard! However there are more and more who are just normal riders who are intrgiued and looking for something which is most definetely not racing, or 24tts or hard riding. For these people (and again ACME is a good example) having experienced people around them, PBP pubinars and so on, makes it *relatively* easy to adapt to Audax and they can learn the full-value-way quickly and well. My point is that these riders are onramped through participation and slowly gathering experience and good guides around them and that experience can only come from.... someone in a far away land looking at PBP or LEL (or TCR, whatever) and being audacious enough to have a go... 

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #126 on: September 26, 2019, 09:25:25 pm »
The early AUKs were mostly long-distance TTers (24hr Fellowship) or hard-riding tourists and had a DNF rate around 10% or below.

Not surprising it was a low DNF rate if riders had to do at least 600km in the 24 to qualify for PBP.

In the year I completed PBP (with just a couple of hours to spare) there would have been no chance of me doing 600km in a 24.

The year I did LEL (again with 2 hours to spare) I may have been able to scrape 600km as I had done a lot more riding (that LEL year was part of a 50 point season).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #127 on: September 26, 2019, 09:54:18 pm »
The new wave of Audax clubs are similar in conception to the French cylotouriste clubs. Those French clubs have an over-arching federation, which is now called FF Velo, whose name is on the shirt, as a sponsor. The new town that St Quentin is a part of used to feature heavily, as it put money into PBP, and provided support services.

The intermediate controls are generally run by a federated club, much as the CTC district might take a leading role in an LEL control. So everything ACME does in getting its club members around PBP is replicated around France. As Ivo pointed out upthread, some areas of France took the pre-qualification seriously. But in 2011 the quotas that were envisaged never came to fruition, and in 2015 the pre-qualification didn't bite.

Those countries who had experience of LEL 2013 and 2017 got their ducks in a row, and did 600s and 1,000s. There were French riders at LEL 2017, but not many, as they hadn't got to grips with the entry procedure.

I've done an event called 'Semaine Federale' a number of times. That's a week of Audax-Like rides run by FF Velo in different parts of France every year. It's about twice the size of PBP, and features many familiar faces. It kicks off with a bit of very French ceremonial featuring local dignitaries and the President of FF Velo. The health of the event can be judged by who is on the podium. If the region, the department, the city and the local communes are represented, all is well.

PBP in the past has had ambassadors, and at one point Jacques Chirac, when he was Mayor of Paris, on the podium. This time there was the Mayor of Rambouillet, and the President of FF Velo. So at the same time PBP is becoming international, it is becoming more dependent on a federation of local French cyclotouriste clubs.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #128 on: September 27, 2019, 08:52:09 am »
The new wave of Audax clubs are similar in conception to the French cylotouriste clubs. Those French clubs have an over-arching federation, which is now called FF Velo, whose name is on the shirt, as a sponsor. The new town that St Quentin is a part of used to feature heavily, as it put money into PBP, and provided support services.

The intermediate controls are generally run by a federated club, much as the CTC district might take a leading role in an LEL control. So everything ACME does in getting its club members around PBP is replicated around France. As Ivo pointed out upthread, some areas of France took the pre-qualification seriously. But in 2011 the quotas that were envisaged never came to fruition, and in 2015 the pre-qualification didn't bite.

Those countries who had experience of LEL 2013 and 2017 got their ducks in a row, and did 600s and 1,000s. There were French riders at LEL 2017, but not many, as they hadn't got to grips with the entry procedure.

I've done an event called 'Semaine Federale' a number of times. That's a week of Audax-Like rides run by FF Velo in different parts of France every year. It's about twice the size of PBP, and features many familiar faces. It kicks off with a bit of very French ceremonial featuring local dignitaries and the President of FF Velo. The health of the event can be judged by who is on the podium. If the region, the department, the city and the local communes are represented, all is well.

PBP in the past has had ambassadors, and at one point Jacques Chirac, when he was Mayor of Paris, on the podium. This time there was the Mayor of Rambouillet, and the President of FF Velo. So at the same time PBP is becoming international, it is becoming more dependent on a federation of local French cyclotouriste clubs.

Ah, ok, I see what you are saying. Perhaps eventually PBP will be run by AUK  :P Looked up the Semaine Federal and it looks terrific, however you really would want a bit of french to navigate that one!

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #129 on: September 27, 2019, 10:16:59 am »
PBP has become more like LEL in the last two editions. The start was altered to a lettered configuration, and the pre-registration brought in some seed-money, which must have offset some of the sponsorship money.

The remaining major difference is in paying for catering. The all-in payment for LEL means that DNFs have no impact on income. At PBP the DNFs are no longer going through the control cafes, which impacts on income.
The French are more likely to have support, and to use external catering, as they can emphasise that they want quick service, and can judge the possibility of that.

So a larger proportion of non-French increases the load on controls, and if they then DNF at a higher rate, there is less income and more waste. PBP is an interesting exercise for a management accountant, I'd love to see the figures.

The answer probably lies in a combination of LEL and Semaine Federale. SF has introduced a system of pre-paid electronic armbands for payment at what are essentially controls. At Sem Fed there's no compulsion to use  the welcome points, but they are easier to use for foreigners than living off the land. You might possibly link PBP pre-payment to not having a support vehicle, so that locals could still cater for themselves.

One sign of the convergence was the accordionist at the finish, who is a Sem Fed fixture.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #130 on: September 27, 2019, 06:38:49 pm »
I'd be interested to know how many ends still go through controls. After all these people still need to get back to the start.

I've heard accounts of riders turning at Carhaix and riding back to remain within the event, and also if riders realising they are out of time and taking a leisurely ride back finishing hd.

What I would most like to see though is data giving numbers of arrivals at each control per hour to see when the bulge was and how much it differed from my arrival time.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #131 on: September 27, 2019, 07:00:37 pm »
...
What I would most like to see though is data giving numbers of arrivals at each control per hour to see when the bulge was and how much it differed from my arrival time.

How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgJQ7KSSkwo

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #132 on: September 29, 2019, 08:37:06 pm »
...
What I would most like to see though is data giving numbers of arrivals at each control per hour to see when the bulge was and how much it differed from my arrival time.

How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgJQ7KSSkwo

I hadn't thought to compare that with my times before;
I managed to drop behind the bulge, then overtake it, then drop behind, then overtake it again and repeat until finishing just ahead of it.
Which explains why there was only 2 controls I thought were absolutely carnage, Carhaix on the way out and Mortagne on the return, I appear to have ridden in the bulge between Villaines and Mortagne but slept less.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #133 on: September 30, 2019, 12:18:13 am »
...
What I would most like to see though is data giving numbers of arrivals at each control per hour to see when the bulge was and how much it differed from my arrival time.

How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgJQ7KSSkwo

I hadn't thought to compare that with my times before;
I managed to drop behind the bulge, then overtake it, then drop behind, then overtake it again and repeat until finishing just ahead of it.
Which explains why there was only 2 controls I thought were absolutely carnage, Carhaix on the way out and Mortagne on the return, I appear to have ridden in the bulge between Villaines and Mortagne but slept less.

In 2015 I remember seeing a similar graphical representation where you could put your rider number in and see how you fared compared to the bulge.
I was in Group Z in 2015 and 2019 and went through the bulge both times, but because the weather conditions made it harder in 2019, I caught some Group U riders before Villaines and saw a lot of riders who had packed coming back the other way before Fougeres. I wasn't going any where near as well as in the Mersey 24 hour or recent 200km rides and couldn't keep up with lots of other 84 hour riders, but I was only off the bike for a total of less than two hours from the start up to leaving Brest so I was still making good steady progress. All the controls were very busy for me from Fougeres outbound to Loudeac inbound, so I bounced them until Tinteniac on the return where I had my first sit down meal. By this time most of the riders around me were 80 hour starters close to the limit and faster 90 hour starters who had slept. There were very few 84 hour starters around and I didn't see any others from Group Z. I had already passed a few struggling Group A starters and I stayed ahead of the Group A control closing times from Tinteniac to the finish. I ended up knocking 25 minutes off my previous best time set in 2015, but was on the bike about 3 hours more in 2019.


Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #134 on: September 30, 2019, 07:43:41 am »

I hadn't thought to compare that with my times before;
I managed to drop behind the bulge, then overtake it, then drop behind, then overtake it again and repeat until finishing just ahead of it.
Which explains why there was only 2 controls I thought were absolutely carnage, Carhaix on the way out and Mortagne on the return, I appear to have ridden in the bulge between Villaines and Mortagne but slept less.

I really like that graphic. It would be good to see it based on the time of day, rather than time on the road, to give the numbers at each control at any one point in time. It looks like I spent pretty much my whole ride in the bulge, varying slightly but usually just ahead of the biggest peak.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #135 on: September 30, 2019, 08:04:43 am »
I really like that graphic. It would be good to see it based on the time of day, rather than time on the road, to give the numbers at each control at any one point in time. It looks like I spent pretty much my whole ride in the bulge, varying slightly but usually just ahead of the biggest peak.
Graphic was interesting, but to get an insight into the bulge (ie the time and its breadth as it 'passed' through each control) the data used needs to be moderated by the time of start, to give the bulge 'real time' data/presentation. The bulge's peak (numbers) unsurprisingly reduces as the ride goes on, so I surmise has less significant after Fougeres (eastbound).

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #136 on: September 30, 2019, 09:18:02 am »
I believe there was a time when even UK riders were new on the PBP scene, had to learn the ropes etc. Once one or two have experience there is a snowball effect and off you go. Look at ACME, a few in 2015 being led by Tomsk and then a whole heap more (12ish) this time round, many relatively new riders (under two years) < this is the difference and it relates to participation; the more participations you can bank, or be around those who have experience, the better off you are. Or indeed watching films about previous editions. I would say that counts vastly more than the spreadsheets, electrics etc which don't make much of a difference either way. As for knowing French it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. I didn't speak a word of it beyond please and thank you. I am all for a wider net - next time more of those people will come back and finish and educate those around them. Was this not how Audax UK started? In that sense I don't think the DNF rate is particularly important, or rather that it might fluctuate with the experience gained by that country over the years. Corollary is that you shouldn't try to make flagship events 'easier'. PBP and LEL are direct experiences that you can't fake, that's what makes them valuable, I don't think anyone really beleives they can be offset with technology do they?

New PBP countries seem to go one of two ways regarding DNFs as time goes on. Audax UK and Audax Australia started off amongst of the lowest DNF rates for sizeable national groups, which gradually increased over time as each country’s numbers have increased. Increased experience doesn't seem to reduce DNF rates as the net widens for these countries; probably the case for the majority of countries with fairly large contingents at PBP. The DNF rate overall for PBP seems to be increasing over time.

The converse has been true for Audax India Randonneurs and Audax Japan, with high initial DNF rates that might be staying about the same or dropping somewhat over time.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #137 on: September 30, 2019, 10:06:01 am »
How about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgJQ7KSSkwo

What date/time was 00:00:00 in the real world?

I don't think I can figure out where I would feature in that representation without knowing that.

Or am I missing something?

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #138 on: September 30, 2019, 10:14:46 am »
Looks like it's normalised (correct term?) so in effect it shows everybody setting off at the same time.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #139 on: September 30, 2019, 10:22:42 am »

I hadn't thought to compare that with my times before;
I managed to drop behind the bulge, then overtake it, then drop behind, then overtake it again and repeat until finishing just ahead of it.
Which explains why there was only 2 controls I thought were absolutely carnage, Carhaix on the way out and Mortagne on the return, I appear to have ridden in the bulge between Villaines and Mortagne but slept less.

I really like that graphic. It would be good to see it based on the time of day, rather than time on the road, to give the numbers at each control at any one point in time. It looks like I spent pretty much my whole ride in the bulge, varying slightly but usually just ahead of the biggest peak.
That's what I was referring to. Checking average performance is fine but it doesn't tell me what to expect at controls. I know when I got to Carhaix at 20.30 on monday it was fine, but when I woke up at 03.00 it was carnage with bodies everywhere.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #140 on: September 30, 2019, 10:29:38 am »

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #141 on: September 30, 2019, 10:41:23 am »
Oddly enough it tells exactly the same story.
I must have been sleeping on a different schedule...


Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2019, 11:51:14 am »
Looks like it's normalised (correct term?) so in effect it shows everybody setting off at the same time.

Thanks yanto. That makes sense of it.

This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TV6Qkq5brk

Fab. So with the first video I can work out how fast I was relative to everyone else and with this second when I was at controls with the most other riders.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2019, 01:36:38 pm »
There are two kinds of France nowadays in regard to PBP.
You have the randonneuring heartlands, Bretagne, North and Ile de France. Riders there are aware of the changes in PBP, they do their brevets every year and keep on top of things. They know that PBP is an international event.
Rides from rural France outside of the 3 mentioned area's. They still think that PBP is as 25 years ago, start their preparations in march of the PBP year and were awakened very rude shortly after that. Many of them don't ride brevets in between PBP years.
Their reactions on the French forum are wildly different. The first group completely agrees with the pre-qualification rules and has prepared for them. The 2nd group feels that French riders are entitled to a start spot and complain because they 'couldn't' do BRM's in 2018. When I suggested that they could also organise themselves I was met with a digital blank stare.

in contrast, the crowds in Bretagne react according to their area. They are fully aware that PBP is an international event and enjoy it.

I will have to speak for the non-randoneering rest a bit. To put things in context the Haute Vienne is the smallest (or at least one of the smallest) Codeps in the FFCT (yes we still believe in the FFCT and the Ligue de Limousin even though to many outsiders neither still exists, a bit like the village of Asterix!) Currently the Codep87 probably counts a total of one experienced (past PBP finisher, currently still at about that level) member in its clubs, and he isn't interested in doing BRMs. The rider actually riding (and organising) long distance BRMs is not a member of a Codep87 club! There are riders who did PBP 20 years ago; they don't feel inclined to get involved any longer with the justification that things have changed and they no longer have the level necessary to offer advice. I would think that this is a situation quite common in the France Profonde outside the randoneering heartland. Since there is no experience in BRMs there are very few BRMs. A rider wanting to do PBP qualification has a choice of perhaps 2 SR series (because there are more organised during PBP years) before needing to do ridiculous mileages (not ridiculous is a round trip of 300-400kms sometimes). There is usually a limited choice of week-ends during march/april for doing a 200 to start with. Outside PBP years the choice is even more limited. This means that in my part of the world at least the pool of riders likely to do long distance BRMs will more usually come from the UFOLEP sportive clubs (who have a younger age structure and harder riders). FFCT clubs in this part of the world typically organise randonnées of 60-100kms to be finished in time for apéros at lunchtime or evening. Not very conducive to success at PBP! I think probably the falling french participation at PBP (and the DNF rate) could easily be explained by the aging structure of the clubs (and the Fédération) and the shortage of experienced riders, a lot of PBP riders in this part of the world seem to want to do it once to tick the box in their lifeplans. It is a cyclical thing which may well get reversed in the next decade (when the old school have all died off!).

To be honest, since Ivo's visit here in june I have had more contact with Jérome (who organises his SR series through a UFOLEP club!) and we may feel inspired to try to offer a bit more. I am of the opinion that a first step is to offer 200s more regularly throughout the year to keep the interest going and between us this may well happen (although convincing my club will undoubtedly not be possible; they are reducing activity, not increasing it.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #144 on: September 30, 2019, 05:27:29 pm »
This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TV6Qkq5brk

Thanks very much for that. It looks like I'm Mr average. I spent my whole time just about at the peak of the bulge. So when other people are speaking about 'carnage' I don't have a comparison, because that was the whole event for me. It probably explains why I spent two hours queuing for toilets and five queuing for food.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #145 on: October 01, 2019, 12:26:15 pm »
... It looks like I'm Mr average ...

I also was very close to the global peak for the whole ride. Sometimes a touch ahead, sometimes a touch behind. For both the relative and absolute representations.

I'm actually pretty happy with that performance!

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #146 on: October 01, 2019, 06:57:23 pm »
... It looks like I'm Mr average ...

I also was very close to the global peak for the whole ride. Sometimes a touch ahead, sometimes a touch behind. For both the relative and absolute representations.

I'm actually pretty happy with that performance!

My goal was to avoid the bulge. Didn't have a correct idea as to my position though. But seems I managed very well, graph explains why I felt lonely at times and didn't see another cyclist for at least half an hour.

Re: Controls + Distances
« Reply #147 on: October 01, 2019, 09:55:32 pm »
The best thing about being supported is that you get to be in the bulge without being affected by it.