Author Topic: Southend to Melbourne without flying...  (Read 3627 times)

bhoot

  • MemSec (ex-Mrs RRtY)
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2019, 10:42:04 pm »
Not sure whether there is anything of interest in this but I remember reading it a few years back.  Sounds like a similar dilemma

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/the-green-way-to-get-to-australia-412892.html


Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2019, 10:24:24 am »
The Scary Devil Monastery solution to avoiding your luggage being damaged or going AWOL is to check in a firearm (they'll have a procedure for this, involving copious amounts of extra paperwork), and put whatever it is you care about in with that.  For some reason, they're suddenly really careful...

Combining G*n C*ntr*l and P*bl*c Tr*nsp*rt (ish) in one post. Brave. Looks like 1999 was the last time I was there. Blimey, how time flies.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2019, 10:39:51 am »
sorry Wow for posting about bikes as it's not relevant to your trip; will move  :)

Re the Trans Siberian Express, is it still available as a normal public train as it seems to be on everyone in the World's ( I won't say bucket as I hate the term) list?

You're suggesting people actually do the things on bucket lists rather than just post to Facebook about them?

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2019, 11:53:18 am »
You will need to find a container ship with space for and willing to take passengers, Singapore or Malaysia are probably the best chance of that.

There are travel agents that specialise in sorting this sort of trip out.

You can also do the entire trip on a freighter from Southampton!

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Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2019, 12:01:47 pm »
It’s not so much that we are not slowing down fast enough. We are accelerating.

It's a guaranteed outcome; the entire basis of the global economy is based on growth.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2019, 12:19:57 pm »
It’s not so much that we are not slowing down fast enough. We are accelerating.

It's a guaranteed outcome; the entire basis of the global economy is based on growth.

Is now the time to mention: https://amzn.to/2ZqMrAp

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2019, 02:33:56 pm »
Quote
It's a guaranteed outcome; the entire basis of the global economy is based on growth.

That is the dominant perspective, offered and reiterated by people on the payroll of massive organisations and "think tanks" (read: propaganda) but there is a huge degrowth movement which has been making convincing arguments against a money-first agenda and a human habit protection agenda instead, for decades.

You don't even need to reject conventional economics to get it, you can just insist that e.g. the negative externalities of climate change, which are gargantuan, are priced into the maths. So instead of just talking about how e.g. 'the aerospace industry employs lots of people' you do an equation of 'it employs lots of people but will maim and kill more through its environmental impact in the course of the 21st century'.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2019, 02:43:46 pm »
I did wonder this morning whether Brazil could charge the world for the oxygen it supplies.

Imagine if every car, plane, coal or gas plant in the world paid a realistic subsidy to Brazil and any other large rainforest country to stop commercial development..

Alternatively if the countries bordering the Sahara started really planting trees subsidised by the same polluting agents.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2019, 03:28:43 pm »
Quote
It's a guaranteed outcome; the entire basis of the global economy is based on growth.

That is the dominant perspective, offered and reiterated by people on the payroll of massive organisations and "think tanks" (read: propaganda) but there is a huge degrowth movement which has been making convincing arguments against a money-first agenda and a human habit protection agenda instead, for decades.

You don't even need to reject conventional economics to get it, you can just insist that e.g. the negative externalities of climate change, which are gargantuan, are priced into the maths. So instead of just talking about how e.g. 'the aerospace industry employs lots of people' you do an equation of 'it employs lots of people but will maim and kill more through its environmental impact in the course of the 21st century'.
By chance I happened to hear of some "sustainable finance" ideas a couple of days ago, in which they are doing just that. Further, they are not just screening out bad stuff but using "impact investment" to invest in positive changes (education, health, decent housing). Bringing us back to Wow's trip, this fund is based in Australia.
At some point in the ride, you might find yourself in Osaka with Spanish speakers where you had expected Edinburgh talking Greek. This does not mean you are lost, or even off route.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2019, 04:00:32 pm »
I did wonder this morning whether Brazil could charge the world for the oxygen it supplies.
Imagine if every car, plane, coal or gas plant in the world paid a realistic subsidy to Brazil and any other large rainforest country to stop commercial development..

This is a concept known as payment for ecosystem services https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_for_ecosystem_services

Quote
By chance I happened to hear of some "sustainable finance" ideas a couple of days ago, in which they are doing just that.
There are people who are serious about it - but what real power do they actually have? For instance my former employer had some very real greenies but they were kept at arms length from the people with the actual purse strings. They were wheeled out to give talks and whatnot and say all the right things but the reality... Be particularly wary about hearing about 'money allocated for x'. The actual data point to be interested in is money actually disbursed which can be a big disparity!
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Cudzoziemiec

  • Dormant but requires tea
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2019, 04:19:39 pm »
Yep. From what I could make out these people were serious (and also going into quite a lot of almost philosophical detail eg on animals' rights in different circumstances) but as they said "we don't have scale".
At some point in the ride, you might find yourself in Osaka with Spanish speakers where you had expected Edinburgh talking Greek. This does not mean you are lost, or even off route.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #86 on: August 23, 2019, 04:59:57 pm »
sorry Wow for posting about bikes as it's not relevant to your trip; will move  :)

Re the Trans Siberian Express, is it still available as a normal public train as it seems to be on everyone in the World's ( I won't say bucket as I hate the term) list?
It is not and never has been a public train, in fact it has never been a train.

Russian trains are numbered, the full transsiberian route is covered by trains 1,2,3 and 4 iirc but the manner they do it differs.

The trans siberian route is covered by a number of trains over the distantce as well as others that follow other routes (trans manchuria and trans Mongolian)

If you're taking a single train with no lay overs planned then you want the "transmanchurian" or "transmongolian" trains to bejing not the "transsiberian" as finding yourself in vladivostock is rsther unhelpful if you are aiming for Australia.

The advise is generally to pick towns to visit along the way, there are guide books that go into detail and worth reading.

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Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2019, 06:27:13 pm »
It's not, by Western standards, an "express" either.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #88 on: August 26, 2019, 07:34:16 am »
Don’t know if it has been mentioned above, but there are agencies that organise freighter passenger travel. http://www.freightercruises.com

Otherwise minimal flying is probably Bali to Darwin


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Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #89 on: October 13, 2019, 09:48:34 am »
That makes me feel slightly less guilty about my occasional city break. I’ve not driven for 20 years & commute by bike or foot.

I was looking at this food-CO2 calculator and selected "beef, once a day". Apparently the carbon footprint of 75g of beef daily is the same as 8 return flights to Málaga a year or driving 11,000 km.

On a personal level, I don't eat meat and cycle commute over 11,000 km, so if I take fewer than 16 European return trips* this would have a lower carbon impact than someone who eats meat daily and drives to work.

It does seem as if the impact of flying is being over-emphasised, or the impact of food is being under-emphasised. Switching to meat alternatives (Impossible/Beyond Meat) would have more impact than not flying on holiday a couple of times a year and probably be easier to convince people to do.



* I don't fly that much, BTW.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Oscar's dad

  • Cheers!
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #90 on: October 13, 2019, 10:11:38 am »
I'm still quite inclined to use the trans-Siberian express, if for no other reason that it would be one hell of a journey - something I'm never likely to repeat. It will take quite a bit of planning though.

I've just spotted this thread and it's interesting as I know Wow has been anti-flying for years.  My own two pennies...

If I was Wow I'd go on the Trans-Siberian Express because it must be amazing.  Then I'd fly and fly back.  I get your environmental concerns Wow and good for you.  But there's something more important, you have to see your family and especially your grand kids.  You say you're worried about what they might think as you're buggering up their future by knackering the environment a bit.  I doubt it will even cross their minds as they will be too busy loving their time with you and Jan.

Buy the tickets... TODAY

Being a morbid for a moment (sorry  :'( ) we have some REAL LIFE going on and someone close to us is not well at all.  That's bad enough except said person is likely to become a grandparent for a second time any day.  But the chances are the two will never meet.  None of us know what's around the corner so spend time with your loved ones whilst you can and bugger the cost.

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #91 on: October 13, 2019, 11:03:23 am »
The grandchildren are in Maidstone, Steve. We can get there and back without charging the car now!

I've been thinking about this "family stuff trumps principles" and I don't agree tbh. This thread was always going to have politics in it because, well, everything has politics in it. Relatively few people appreciate how serious the problem facing the planet/humanity is. That's because it's been censored from the news.

XR argue that we should be carbon neutral by 2025. I think it's essential that we are, and even then there's a severe risk that we have already set off such a massive methane release from the Arctic that whatever humans do now, it may well be too late to save our civilisation.

I don't see ho we can contemplate a journey of such a damaging effect with the well-being of people on a different part of the planet whose livelihoods are being wrecked by our profligate activities.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Oscar's dad

  • Cheers!
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #92 on: October 13, 2019, 11:12:05 am »
Fair enough Wow. What does Mrs Wow think if you don’t mind my asking?

Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #93 on: October 13, 2019, 11:13:46 am »
Have to agree with Wow: it's a tough personal decision but an easy societal and humanitarian one.  Personal travel has a huge impact on the environment and the sustainability of the planet with regard to human survival.  It's our childrens and our grandchildrens futures that we are playing with.

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #94 on: October 13, 2019, 11:38:07 am »
Fair enough Wow. What does Mrs Wow think of you don’t mind my asking?

Neither of us fancies 24 hours cooped up in a hermetically sealed container in each direction. It woud be a journey of duty more than pleasure. A trip to Aus hasn't ever really appealed to me to be honest. If we go (and we may well do, simply because I think it would really upset our daughter if we didn't) we wouldn't go for less than 6 weeks and I would also want to go to NZ, which has appealed to me.

The fact is that we would both have preferred our daughter to have stayed in this country, but our reasons are purely selfish. Her academic qualifications are as good as anyone's as is her ability to promote herself for work. She's got a fantastic job - well, two, actually, because she's teaching at Melbourne Uni as well as her normal job, and she was always going to be able to pick her city to live. Being a Global Mover & Shaker was what her Masters prepared her for. She was having a shitty time in London, at the mercy of bloody landlords, so, having spent 6 weeks in Melbourne as part of her Masters, she decided to settle there. That was 4 years ago and now she's got permanent residency and will probably have dual citizenship within the next year.

She will be coming to Europe (Belgium, I think) for a conference early next year, and I hope that we will be able to see her then.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Oscar's dad

  • Cheers!
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2019, 11:57:19 am »
Good stuff Wow. This will be an interesting story to follow.

Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2019, 12:26:07 pm »
That makes me feel slightly less guilty about my occasional city break. I’ve not driven for 20 years & commute by bike or foot.

I was looking at this food-CO2 calculator and selected "beef, once a day". Apparently the carbon footprint of 75g of beef daily is the same as 8 return flights to Málaga a year or driving 11,000 km.

On a personal level, I don't eat meat and cycle commute over 11,000 km, so if I take fewer than 16 European return trips* this would have a lower carbon impact than someone who eats meat daily and drives to work.

It does seem as if the impact of flying is being over-emphasised, or the impact of food is being under-emphasised. Switching to meat alternatives (Impossible/Beyond Meat) would have more impact than not flying on holiday a couple of times a year and probably be easier to convince people to do.

* I don't fly that much, BTW.
We're all drawing our own lines and they're all arbitrary.  Wow won't fly but drives around in his own personal motor vehicle,  same hypocrisy can be pointed at me, I don't fly but buy stuff that has...  I doubt any of us are doing anything like enough to make a significant difference, or that it's likely to change, not until it's way to late anyway.  All the hand wringing is just part of the game, if we were serious about   a sustainable lifestyle there wouldn't be time for it. 

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2019, 12:33:22 pm »
I fly several times a year for work and occasionally for holidays, mostly to other continents, but prefer taking trains/ ferries to Europe for holidays. We have a car but do less than 5000 miles/ year. On the other hand, I have no kids, so that is a major factor in limiting my emissions.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2019, 07:59:22 pm »
That makes me feel slightly less guilty about my occasional city break. I’ve not driven for 20 years & commute by bike or foot.

I was looking at this food-CO2 calculator and selected "beef, once a day". Apparently the carbon footprint of 75g of beef daily is the same as 8 return flights to Málaga a year or driving 11,000 km.

On a personal level, I don't eat meat and cycle commute over 11,000 km, so if I take fewer than 16 European return trips* this would have a lower carbon impact than someone who eats meat daily and drives to work.

It does seem as if the impact of flying is being over-emphasised, or the impact of food is being under-emphasised. Switching to meat alternatives (Impossible/Beyond Meat) would have more impact than not flying on holiday a couple of times a year and probably be easier to convince people to do.

* I don't fly that much, BTW.
We're all drawing our own lines and they're all arbitrary.  Wow won't fly but drives around in his own personal motor vehicle,  same hypocrisy can be pointed at me, I don't fly but buy stuff that has...  I doubt any of us are doing anything like enough to make a significant difference, or that it's likely to change, not until it's way to late anyway.  All the hand wringing is just part of the game, if we were serious about   a sustainable lifestyle there wouldn't be time for it.

A motor vehicle that for almost 6 years has been fed almost exclusively by Ecotricity electrons. They are pretty much the most sustainable energy company available.

But you are right though about hypocrisy. We have no reasonable alternative but to live in a consumerist society (see a recent Monbiot article) and the available choices are all geared towards the economic-growth-at-all-costs model which we know doesn't work. Hence XR.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Oscar's dad

  • Cheers!
Re: Southend to Melbourne without flying...
« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2019, 08:12:54 pm »
Possible Unhelpful Comment Alert...

So if we’re already doomed why not fly to see your daughter?  Particularly when land transport might have a high eco cost if not as high as air transport.  From what I’ve read here it seems like the most eco-friendly solution is to not travel to Aus / NZ by any means.