Author Topic: PBP 2019 - Notes to self  (Read 7075 times)

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
    • Occasional wittering
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2019, 02:21:25 pm »
All boils down to 'race out, tour back' being about the best piece of advice for the ride.  Particularly if you can stay in front of the bulge or leapfrog it if you're a later starter.

I was pretty slow on the road this time compared to the last two, but was able to just about stay ahead of the bulge by focusing on the race out part.

But agree with Greenbank that it is good for weeding out the riders who are unlikely to be able to finish in time with the front loading.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2019, 05:21:39 pm »
All boils down to 'race out, tour back' being about the best piece of advice for the ride.

If you're actually up against the closing times as I was, this description is horribly misleading*. As per the numbers above, the pace doesn't even start relenting until after Carhaix, and only really backs off to "touring" in the final quarter.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2019, 05:27:30 pm »
All boils down to 'race out, tour back' being about the best piece of advice for the ride.  Particularly if you can stay in front of the bulge or leapfrog it if you're a later starter.

I was pretty slow on the road this time compared to the last two, but was able to just about stay ahead of the bulge by focusing on the race out part.

But agree with Greenbank that it is good for weeding out the riders who are unlikely to be able to finish in time with the front loading.

I think you can see that in my times, I built up to 5 hours in hand (despite terribly long times spent in controls), and then managed with a couple of hour drops to maintain the time in hand, which means I was slowing (both on and off bike) at about the same pace the intermediate averages were dropping.

I can alter the spreadsheet to maintain 13.33kmh and compare times later, but in that situation I'd have built up a larger marging before constantly losing it.
I'm not sure what would be worse,
I felt like I was stuck in a rut because after getting to 4 hours I wasn't really building it up BUT I was doing my calculations on leaving controls rather than arrival on the road where as those times are for control arrival.
Feeling like you're constantly losing time as you slow would be horrible? I guess I'll find out on another long audax.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2019, 05:31:13 pm »
No need to change anything really.
Maybe drink more cider on the way to the start/ home again.
After all it is a holiday :thumbsup:

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2019, 05:32:38 pm »
"Race out, tour back" generally means getting to Brest in under 35h or so. If you're in a position to do this then it makes touring back quite possible as you've got 55h to do it.

If you're not in a position to do this then PBP is going to be hard for you regardless of your chosen strategy. Especially if you push yourself hard and still only get to Brest in 39h+.

(I was definitely consistently up against the time limits in 2011 but I didn't panic and pushed on through, luckily I deal well with very little sleep and after starting badly and feeling far from 100% I got better and felt stronger and stronger as the ride went on. If I every do PBP again I'll want to be much faster and able to get more sleep along the way and maintain much more of a time cushion.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2019, 05:32:55 pm »
Everyone who gets to PBP will have done a 40 hour 600. So the best advice for a full value rider is to aim to get to Brest in 40 hours. There's a bit of wiggle room around that, but it then sets you up for some additional sleep on the way back.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2019, 05:54:48 pm »
I'm still a bit dissapointed with my slightly over 38hr to Brest time.
My 600 times are all 37hr something.

That said on Andy Corless' 1000 my 600 time was 40hrs; but then I had used up a fair bit of the time I'd built up for a 5hr stop at Paisley on that and got in with a similar amount of time in hand at the finish.

The other mistake from that I repeated on PBP was not eating enough before and in the first quarter.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2019, 06:01:12 pm »
The evening start cocks up riding it like a 600 and you'd be very unlucky to have such a relentless headwind on an out-and-back course. They're simply not comparable.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2019, 06:11:58 pm »
I'm still a bit dissapointed with my slightly over 38hr to Brest time.
My 600 times are all 37hr something.

It took me longer than that in 2007, but the weather was pretty bad. My 2015 (33h-odd) and 2019 (35h) rides out are my fastest and second fastest 600s, and on the 80h in both cases I was pushed on the way back due to the pace not dropping right back until after 1000km. Trouble is when I've snuck under 36h for 600km before, I've had 2-4 hours sleep.

The trouble with the headwind to Brest wasn't just that it was a headwind to Brest, but also that it wasn't a tailwind back.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2019, 07:05:25 pm »
The evening start cocks up riding it like a 600 and you'd be very unlucky to have such a relentless headwind on an out-and-back course. They're simply not comparable.

But then you are starting with big bunches which make that you can hide from the headwind on the way out. Got nice shelter till Tinteniac where a slow water stop eant we lost the first group. Pace was fast though think quite some overdid it and you coould see it from there onwards.

Though my experience might be different to most as in that I am relatively fast. So a fast to Brest nice Sleep in Carhaix on the way back and cruise back ment that I could enjoy a tailwind for most of the ride back to Paris.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2019, 07:36:06 pm »
The trouble with the headwind to Brest wasn't just that it was a headwind to Brest, but also that it wasn't a tailwind back.

I didn't really notice the wind, Iroiromono reckons I didn't notice because it wasn't gusting so just felt like the normal wind resistance from riding, but my speed on the road is pretty similar to what I was expecting, moving speed dropping to between 18 and 20kmh; which is how fast I normally ride now when knackered... (I didn't do any speed work this year just endurance and suffer for it)
But then I'm used to doing that on rough Scottish and Northern English roads. 
My rolling average from the rides down and back are noticeably above normal for the distances before you allow for the fact I wasn't exactly fresh legged.

The evening start cocks up riding it like a 600 and you'd be very unlucky to have such a relentless headwind on an out-and-back course. They're simply not comparable.

My (shortish) list of 600s includes and evening start in the form of BGB, on which I got to Gretna on the return before sleeping.

I spent around an hour at most controls without realizing it even when I looked at what was on offer and decided to go elsewhere,
and I fell asleep in a café at 6am for a bit, hung around another village for half an hour; this was the sort of thing I planned to do on the return...

Basically I wasn't very efficient as 26 hours stopped for 60 riding suggests. That's 3.25 days worth of "normal" sleep!!!



However, it was my first PBP, I went to enjoy it. It's just I have that feeling I could have done better...
Next Time!

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2019, 09:35:34 pm »
Everyone who gets to PBP will have done a 40 hour 600. So the best advice for a full value rider is to aim to get to Brest in 40 hours. There's a bit of wiggle room around that, but it then sets you up for some additional sleep on the way back.
I think my point is, if there was a step change for all controls after Brest that would allow a proper sleep at Brest or Carhaix before completing the second 600 with 10% extra time over the first. Instead of having to push straight back being tired and ending up taking 60 minutes sleep at each control before repeating. That strikes me as a punishing stressful way to ride. All because the time in hand is drip fed back to you 1 hour per control. The time limit for a 600 is 40 but pbp gives 42 the the limit for a 1000 is 75 but pbp gives 72. So what would normally be 35 hours for a 400 is reduced to 30, very close to the 27 that full value riders might us if fresh. Ie no extra time to sleep on the way back.

Look at the control closing times and consider a plan of starting at 6am each day. Where do you need to get to on the previous day not to be out of time at the first control after sleeping? I think its get to brest monday night,
   Eddington  81 miles  112 kms

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2019, 10:28:55 pm »
The time limit for a 600 is 40 but pbp gives 42 the the limit for a 1000 is 75 but pbp gives 72. So what would normally be 35 hours for a 400 is reduced to 30, very close to the 27 that full value riders might us if fresh. Ie no extra time to sleep on the way back.

Only if you think of it that way.

Not sure of the 2019 timings but in 2011 Villaines (at 1009km) had a 74h12m time limit, which is much closer to the expected 75h than 72h.

Even then, if the time limit for 1000km was 72h then, proportionally, the 600km control would be 600*1000/72 = 43h20, so PBP is keeping you within that by pushing you faster to Brest and then easing off slightly.

Maybe the advice should be "Don't *PLAN* on riding PBP according to the control closing times as they're a bit odd, calculate where you're likely to stop and look at how that fits with the control closing times. If you end up against the wall then riding to within the control closure times is a last resort."

If you're a full value rider on a standard UK 600 (like I was/am) then PBP is going to be tough and put you right up against the time limits.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2019, 04:28:42 am »
I guess the front loading is designed to flush out people who are unlikely to finish (at all) at a point earlier in the ride compared to if it was a flat speed limit throughout where those riders who would ultimately DNF are now up against time limits with an extra couple of days of fatigue and sleep deprivation in their system.

In other words, if someone is going to be a DNF it's better/safer for them to DNF earlier in the ride than later and the front loading helps exacerbate this.

I would agree if people were actually made aware of their time problems at the intermediate controls but that was not the case at all.  Many riders seemed totally unaware of it and as far as the control card workers were concerned if the control was open you got a stamp and were on your way.  There was no incentive to stop if they didn't know.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2019, 10:14:19 am »
I guess the front loading is designed to flush out people who are unlikely to finish (at all) at a point earlier in the ride compared to if it was a flat speed limit throughout where those riders who would ultimately DNF are now up against time limits with an extra couple of days of fatigue and sleep deprivation in their system.

In other words, if someone is going to be a DNF it's better/safer for them to DNF earlier in the ride than later and the front loading helps exacerbate this.

I would agree if people were actually made aware of their time problems at the intermediate controls but that was not the case at all.  Many riders seemed totally unaware of it and as far as the control card workers were concerned if the control was open you got a stamp and were on your way.  There was no incentive to stop if they didn't know.

Why should riders time problems be the responsibility of anyone other than the rider themselves? Anyone who has done an SR should be quite aware of the need to keep track of control times and be able to estimate and plan what is coming up.

Audaxing isn't just about turning the pedals for the required distance. PBP already lessens the cognitive load somewhat by providing direction arrows which takes away the vast majority of the navigation aspect.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2019, 11:03:25 am »
I was very worried a couple of days before the start. I was on the 80 hour and thought there was a 35/45 split for the outward and return legs.  I had been happyish with the 35/45 split until at the pub in Portsmouth when asked about my 600 times. Hmmm, 1 @ 34 and a bit and two @ 37. My main concern was getting to Brest in time.  Adrenaline and pains-au-chocolat  - my fastest 200, 300, 400 and 600 I decided to keep going rather than stop. An unplanned proper nights sleep in a hotel in Sizun and then 32 hours for the last (nearly) 600. I would probably book the hotel in Sizun if doing it again but as it went much better than expected, I think I will stick at one. The highlight for me was the little bottle of red wine I had at Villaines on the way back.

JonB

  • Granny Ring ... Yes Please!
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2019, 11:35:24 am »
Why should riders time problems be the responsibility of anyone other than the rider themselves? Anyone who has done an SR should be quite aware of the need to keep track of control times and be able to estimate and plan what is coming up.

Audaxing isn't just about turning the pedals for the required distance. PBP already lessens the cognitive load somewhat by providing direction arrows which takes away the vast majority of the navigation aspect.

On one level I agree with you especially about what the volunteers should know (they have enough to do) but there is a bit of a difference in that the control times on a 600 (in the UK) are printed in the brevet card, the times in the PBP brevet card seemed to be for the entire cohort of riders and didn't really seem to serve any meaningul pupose. There's a lot of bunf in the brevet card and having a list of control times for the three groups which a rider can extrapolate from would be helpful. These were sent to us before the ride but I hadn't taken the printed doc as I thought they'd be in the brevet card, in the end I was able to access the times from my phone and calculate my personal cut off times but something more meaningful in the brevet card would have been helpful. 

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2019, 11:40:38 am »
We recorded a couple of instances where control times were discussed. Part of the confusion results from riders not knowing where they've been. Did the group from Delhi ever go to Carhaix? They were at St Martin des Pres at  7am or so. The other section is Quedillac on the way back. V079 made it with 1 hour 10 minutes in hand at the finish.

Edit H029 got to Loudeac, so might have made it to St Nicholas before turning back.


Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2019, 11:46:13 am »
Why should riders time problems be the responsibility of anyone other than the rider themselves? Anyone who has done an SR should be quite aware of the need to keep track of control times and be able to estimate and plan what is coming up.

Audaxing isn't just about turning the pedals for the required distance. PBP already lessens the cognitive load somewhat by providing direction arrows which takes away the vast majority of the navigation aspect.

On one level I agree with you especially about what the volunteers should know (they have enough to do) but there is a bit of a difference in that the control times on a 600 (in the UK) are printed in the brevet card, the times in the PBP brevet card seemed to be for the entire cohort of riders and didn't really seem to serve any meaningul pupose. There's a lot of bunf in the brevet card and having a list of control times for the three groups which a rider can extrapolate from would be helpful. These were sent to us before the ride but I hadn't taken the printed doc as I thought they'd be in the brevet card, in the end I was able to access the times from my phone and calculate my personal cut off times but something more meaningful in the brevet card would have been helpful.

I took the 'reference' times from the pages in the 'Dossier Participant' which were based on a 17:15 depart, and adjusted them for my own departure time.

When I got my card on the Sat, it was obvious that the closing times were not personalised, and were the final closing time for the last group, so not correct for me.
So I wrote my own closing time in small writing at the bottom of each box just for my information.
( I didn't scribble over the printed times, I left those alone. )

I had most of Saturday to do this, so it was no biggie.

No-one complained about this.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2019, 11:49:59 am »
The brevet card contained the control opening and closing times for the first group in your wave. So for instance if you were in the 90hr wave, the brevet card showed you the control opening and closing times for the 17:15 start. So you'd have to add on the difference between your start time and 17:15 to get the control closing times for your group.  That was much easier to do on the Saturday (putting the results on a slip of paper), than mid event, but not many will have done that.

So note to those who got confused about closing times.  Work them out on the Saturday, once you have the brevet card, then write them down on a bit of paper you can carry with you..

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #95 on: September 13, 2019, 12:16:13 pm »
The brevet card contained the control opening and closing times for the first group in your wave. So for instance if you were in the 90hr wave, the brevet card showed you the control opening and closing times for the 17:15 start.
No it didn’t. It had the opening for the first group and the closing time of the last group.... confusing stuff!

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2019, 12:16:42 pm »
I believe that the closing times were for the last group in your wave rather than the first group.

The closing time for Rambouillet in my brevet card (90 hour group) is 1500 on the 22nd which is 90 hours after 2100 on the 18th.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2019, 12:21:30 pm »
That was the case for Group F velo speciale. Opening times printed on the brevet cards were for our group or the first solo 90hr group. Closing times on the brevet cards were for the very last 90hr group, unlike the previous PBP. We found that out at Carhaix (return) and had to lift our game subsequently, being uncomfortably close to our actual closing time at that control.

This information was noted in the dossier but, being old hands, we (riding a tandem) incorrectly assumed it would be the same as the previous PBP where we'd also ridden a tandem.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2019, 12:23:08 pm »
I believe that the closing times were for the last group in your wave rather than the first group.

You are quite correct.  It was the closing time for the first group in 2015.  Just as well I stopped and turned round (this time) with gut issues, else I would have got confused (about closing times) later on as well!

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2019, 12:31:23 pm »
I can't help but feel they'd have been better off printing nothing if they couldn't personalise them.

In the days before I found this spreadsheet on Google which tells you closing times from your group letter and had a screenshot of it on my phone (which was on my handlebars).

(and yes, I cross checked it against the dossier!)